Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:46 pm
Huh? What? Huh?
LuNiney wrote:
i'd rather not participate in the discussion 99% the reason because i'd just ruin everything with my terrible argumenting abilities (R)
but i'd like to add: talking behind one's back isn't cool. a while back, certain people talked behind my back while i wasn't in the newer skype group. t'was about things that clearly could've been said right in front of me. assumptions that i could've "corrected" things that i agreed (and disagreed) things that could have just been talked out. but no! you have to do it in secret because You Don't Want To "Offend" Anyone And Will Still Act As Your "Friend" Even Though You Have Some Issues With The Guy! ! ! Not talking about privacy stuff, but on the topic of it, talking it out with someone you'd like to complain about in public isn't the best solution...
...but, well... in the end everyone just becomes a good little hypocrite, and talks behind the backs of each other anyway
i do agree with this, this was pretty out of line when it happened. i'll admit that this was talking behind the backs of others, i dunno if i apologized then for it but i do now.
however, i do think that "getting angry at a post/thread someone made" isn't the same as simply getting angry at the person. believe it or not there's a difference. personally i get frustrated with others in the moment, if someone's being stubborn then i'll get agitated behind the scenes. however after the fact and everything inbetween i simply stop caring. what they do otherwise i couldn't care less about.
when i say "it's not talking about people behind their backs", it's because i know it's not. it only happens when a questionable post is brought up and the user in question has a reputation worth questioning. you're not gonna see people continue to gripe about it unless it's relevant. nobody is that petty they'll voice the same insults and whatever days upon weeks after the fact. if every day everyone gossiped and insulted people without any lead-on then yea, that's talking behind people's backs, especially if they're trying to save face and act like friends. but last i checked that doesn't happen. and it's not like it doesn't leave the group, either. what is said in the group on the topic of a thread or post almost always makes its way out of the group and into that thread as a reply. it's still taken to the forums, in public, it's just more tactful.
this is the last i really care to say on the matter. i'm getting really tired of going back and forth with this.
Kritter wrote:
I will say there's a difference between a personal opinion about relevent subject matter, and a personal attack for the sake of being nasty. You've no idea of the difference apparently. You also don't know how to apologise because none of your "apology" was addressed to me, just a general self-opinion about how bad you are at posting, and it's garbage like this that ruins a potentially good, deep discussion with two sides, when you force me to storm in and defend myself over something that has no bearing on ANYTHING. Think before you post indeed.
for what it's worth what he did is basically what you've been saying for the past page and a half. he had his issue with what you said and brought it to the forums.
[quote="LuNiney"]i'd rather not participate in the discussion
99% the reason because i'd just ruin everything with my terrible argumenting abilities (R)
but i'd like to add:
talking behind one's back isn't cool.
a while back, [i]certain[/i] people talked behind my back while i wasn't in the [i]newer[/i] skype group.
t'was about things that clearly could've been said right in front of me.
assumptions that i could've "corrected"
things that i agreed (and disagreed)
things that could have just been talked out.
but no! you have to do it in secret because You Don't Want To "Offend" Anyone And Will Still Act As Your "Friend" Even Though You Have Some Issues With The Guy! ! !
Not talking about privacy stuff, but on the topic of it, talking it out with someone you'd like to complain about in public isn't [i]the[/i] best solution...
...but, well... in the end
[i]everyone[/i] just becomes a good little hypocrite, and talks behind the backs of each other anyway[/quote]
i do agree with this, this was pretty out of line when it happened. i'll admit that this was talking behind the backs of others, i dunno if i apologized then for it but i do now.
however, i do think that "getting angry at a post/thread someone made" isn't the same as simply getting angry at the person. believe it or not there's a difference. personally i get frustrated with others in the moment, if someone's being stubborn then i'll get agitated behind the scenes. however after the fact and everything inbetween i simply stop caring. what they do otherwise i couldn't care less about.
when i say "it's not talking about people behind their backs", it's because i know it's not. it only happens when a questionable post is brought up and the user in question has a reputation worth questioning. you're not gonna see people continue to gripe about it unless it's relevant. nobody is that petty they'll voice the same insults and whatever days upon weeks after the fact. if every day everyone gossiped and insulted people without any lead-on then yea, that's talking behind people's backs, especially if they're trying to save face and act like friends. but last i checked that doesn't happen. and it's not like it doesn't leave the group, either. what is said in the group on the topic of a thread or post almost always makes its way out of the group and into that thread as a reply. it's still taken to the forums, in public, it's just more tactful.
this is the last i really care to say on the matter. i'm getting really tired of going back and forth with this.
[quote="Kritter"]I will say there's a difference between a personal opinion about relevent subject matter, and a personal attack for the sake of being nasty. You've no idea of the difference apparently. You also don't know how to apologise because none of your "apology" was addressed to me, just a general self-opinion about how bad you are at posting, and it's garbage like this that ruins a potentially good, deep discussion with two sides, when you force me to storm in and defend myself over something that has no bearing on ANYTHING. Think before you post indeed.[/quote]
for what it's worth what he did is basically what you've been saying for the past page and a half. he had his issue with what you said and brought it to the forums.
Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:57 pm
Not banned.
Mit wrote:
Kritter wrote:
I will say there's a difference between a personal opinion about relevent subject matter, and a personal attack for the sake of being nasty. You've no idea of the difference apparently. You also don't know how to apologise because none of your "apology" was addressed to me, just a general self-opinion about how bad you are at posting, and it's garbage like this that ruins a potentially good, deep discussion with two sides, when you force me to storm in and defend myself over something that has no bearing on ANYTHING. Think before you post indeed.
for what it's worth what he did is basically what you've been saying for the past page and a half. he had his issue with what you said and brought it to the forums.
No he used something I said to make an irrelevant insult.
[quote="Mit"]
[quote="Kritter"]I will say there's a difference between a personal opinion about relevent subject matter, and a personal attack for the sake of being nasty. You've no idea of the difference apparently. You also don't know how to apologise because none of your "apology" was addressed to me, just a general self-opinion about how bad you are at posting, and it's garbage like this that ruins a potentially good, deep discussion with two sides, when you force me to storm in and defend myself over something that has no bearing on ANYTHING. Think before you post indeed.[/quote]
for what it's worth what he did is basically what you've been saying for the past page and a half. he had his issue with what you said and brought it to the forums.[/quote]
No he used something I said to make an irrelevant insult.
Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:00 pm
Huh? What? Huh?
Kritter wrote:
Mit wrote:
Kritter wrote:
I will say there's a difference between a personal opinion about relevent subject matter, and a personal attack for the sake of being nasty. You've no idea of the difference apparently. You also don't know how to apologise because none of your "apology" was addressed to me, just a general self-opinion about how bad you are at posting, and it's garbage like this that ruins a potentially good, deep discussion with two sides, when you force me to storm in and defend myself over something that has no bearing on ANYTHING. Think before you post indeed.
for what it's worth what he did is basically what you've been saying for the past page and a half. he had his issue with what you said and brought it to the forums.
No he used something I said to make an irrelevant insult.
yeah, that's what i mean. it was completely irrelevant to the topic just like going into someone's thread and going at the issues you have with them would be irrelevant to whatever topic it's being done in. that's why it should be kept in private, whether it be with the person in question or if you're just venting because you want to calm down.
[quote="Kritter"][quote="Mit"]
[quote="Kritter"]I will say there's a difference between a personal opinion about relevent subject matter, and a personal attack for the sake of being nasty. You've no idea of the difference apparently. You also don't know how to apologise because none of your "apology" was addressed to me, just a general self-opinion about how bad you are at posting, and it's garbage like this that ruins a potentially good, deep discussion with two sides, when you force me to storm in and defend myself over something that has no bearing on ANYTHING. Think before you post indeed.[/quote]
for what it's worth what he did is basically what you've been saying for the past page and a half. he had his issue with what you said and brought it to the forums.[/quote]
No he used something I said to make an irrelevant insult.[/quote]
yeah, that's what i mean. it was completely irrelevant to the topic just like going into someone's thread and going at the issues you have with them would be irrelevant to whatever topic it's being done in. that's why it should be kept in private, whether it be with the person in question or if you're just venting because you want to calm down.
Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:06 pm
Not banned.
If he's got an issue with me he can PM me or an admin if need be, or he can think for a minute and make a rational response to something that's been said here that doesn't require the use of an insult. If he needs to whine to his friends about it "in private" then that's just petty. We've just gone around in circles here about this whole issue, so let me start again:
Quote:
I don't agree. Turns it into a hive-mind where instead of trusting yourself and posting what you feel / learning how to post without being offensive, you're enlisting others to validate your opinion whether it's right or wrong because you're around people you know will back you up, and you can't be pinged for what kind of thing you say because it's not official.
A number of people have already admitted to seeing this happen in various chat mediums, so lets not pretend it's all fun and games when you want to vent about a member.
If he's got an issue with me he can PM me or an admin if need be, or he can think for a minute and make a rational response to something that's been said here that doesn't require the use of an insult. If he needs to whine to his friends about it "in private" then that's just petty. We've just gone around in circles here about this whole issue, so let me start again:
[quote]I don't agree. Turns it into a hive-mind where instead of trusting yourself and posting what you feel / learning how to post without being offensive, you're enlisting others to validate your opinion whether it's right or wrong because you're around people you know will back you up, and you can't be pinged for what kind of thing you say because it's not official.[/quote]
A number of people have already admitted to seeing this happen in various chat mediums, so lets not pretend it's all fun and games when you want to vent about a member.
Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:21 pm
Huh? What? Huh?
i think people agreeing with eachother based on their own reasons isn't a hivemind. whether it happens or not tends to vary by group, but in the MFGG group i'm pretty sure that, at least in the past, i would call it anything but a hivemind. people would argue all the time to the point of leaving. nowadays that doesn't happen simply because we only let people in if they ask and they're voted in. things are generally quieter in the way of arguments, but they do still happen.
if the skype group was a hivemind all the way then everyone in it would say the same things about the same people for the same reasons. but that's simply not the case. myself and multiple other people from the group have said we argue quite a fair bit still (and i hope this sentence doesn't get twisted as "oh you all agree on something??? nice job its a hivemind"). calling it and all friendly chats a hivemind just seems like calling it a buzzword just to disregard it. friends can help you do things objectively just as well as a stranger can, it's just a bit more difficult. it's not impossible, but it's not easy.
i think people agreeing with eachother based on their own reasons isn't a hivemind. whether it happens or not tends to vary by group, but in the MFGG group i'm pretty sure that, at least in the past, i would call it anything but a hivemind. people would argue all the time to the point of leaving. nowadays that doesn't happen simply because we only let people in if they ask and they're voted in. things are generally quieter in the way of arguments, but they do still happen.
if the skype group was a hivemind all the way then everyone in it would say the same things about the same people for the same reasons. but that's simply not the case. myself and multiple other people from the group have said we argue quite a fair bit still (and i hope this sentence doesn't get twisted as "oh you all agree on something??? nice job its a hivemind"). calling it and all friendly chats a hivemind just seems like calling it a buzzword just to disregard it. friends can help you do things objectively just as well as a stranger can, it's just a bit more difficult. it's not impossible, but it's not easy.
Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:34 pm
Thanks DonnieTheGuy!
The group can't be a hivemind when we have Willsaber.
I love how people who call the group a hivemind are not even in the group. If you don't know something don't comment about it. I don't really want to continue this. If you think the group is a hivemind, cool keep thinking that. I and 40 other people on the group know it's not and a few people's false assumptions won't make it that.
[s]The group can't be a hivemind when we have Willsaber.[/s]
I love how people who call the group a hivemind are not even in the group.
If you don't know something don't comment about it.
I don't really want to continue this. If you think the group is a hivemind, cool keep thinking that. I and 40 other people on the group know it's not and a few people's false assumptions won't make it that.
[quote="[url=http://phpbb.mfgg.net/viewtopic.php?p=472562#p472562]Syaxamaphone[/url]"]I feel bad for Vinny's poor topic...[/quote]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/RTTZ49k.jpg[/img]
Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:40 am
Not banned.
Mors wrote:
The group can't be a hivemind when we have Willsaber.
I love how people who call the group a hivemind are not even in the group. If you don't know something don't comment about it. I don't really want to continue this. If you think the group is a hivemind, cool keep thinking that. I and 40 other people on the group know it's not and a few people's false assumptions won't make it that.
"We're not a hivemind! Everyone said so!"
Even though I know what you're trying to say, I find that really amusing.
Though, talking about people in front of 40 potential other people sounds really private and not talking behind someones back at all. Honestly I wish I never used the term "hivemind" because people have the wrong idea of what I meant, though people like Hyliandev seem to have the right idea.
[quote="Mors"][s]The group can't be a hivemind when we have Willsaber.[/s]
I love how people who call the group a hivemind are not even in the group.
If you don't know something don't comment about it.
I don't really want to continue this. If you think the group is a hivemind, cool keep thinking that. I and 40 other people on the group know it's not and a few people's false assumptions won't make it that.[/quote]
"We're not a hivemind! Everyone said so!"
Even though I know what you're [i]trying [/i]to say, I find that [i]really [/i]amusing.
Though, talking about people in front of 40 potential other people sounds really private and not talking behind someones back at all. Honestly I wish I never used the term "hivemind" because people have the wrong idea of what I meant, though people like Hyliandev seem to have the right idea.
Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:26 am
Huh? What? Huh?
the thing about saying that it's in front of nearly 40 people is that rarely ever are those 40 people all around at once, so in a way it's like people idling in an IRC. the difference of course being you can leave an IRC, however you can choose not to read all the messages you've missed on skype (since odds are there's gonna be a lot and you're not gonna want to sift through them all unless you've been notified)
the thing about saying that it's in front of nearly 40 people is that rarely ever are those 40 people all around at once, so in a way it's like people idling in an IRC. the difference of course being you can leave an IRC, however you [i]can[/i] choose not to read all the messages you've missed on skype (since odds are there's gonna be a lot and you're not gonna want to sift through them all unless you've been notified)
Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:20 pm
VinnyVideo wrote:
If you've spent dozens of hours trying to turn your dream into a reality, you probably want everyone to tell you just how awesome it is!
I don't think it's a good idea to do that...
If you did that, you'd probably sound egotistical.
Unless if I'm not getting something here, of course.
[quote="VinnyVideo"]If you've spent dozens of hours trying to turn your dream into a reality, [b]you probably want everyone to tell you just how awesome it is![/b][/quote]
I don't think it's a good idea to do that...
If you did that, you'd [i]probably[/i] sound egotistical.
Unless if I'm not getting something here, of course.
Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:05 pm
Wafer-thin Animator
I read over the bulk of this topic and there are a lot of points that I honestly agree with several points in it. I hope you guys don't mind, but I'd like to comment on those points and share my own thoughts on this matter. Some of this is me speaking from personal experiences, but I'll make sure that I don't directly mention anyone to avoid stirring up the pot unintentionally.
By the way, since this is quite a hefty read, I took the liberty of dividing my discussion into multiple spoilers. Of course, I also provided a summery of my points just to give you the base idea.
Even though it's okay to negatively act against other users, it should be saved as a last resort. Ideally, the more experienced users should provide more patience with new users who are sometimes dismissed as dense and immature. Also, the experienced users usually have some sort of power over other users to the point where they could manipulate them to act however they want and sway the opinions of even rationally thinking users. My big concern is to make sure those two factors are not abused to drive the less experienced users into acting irrational and overall keep them as outcasts. Instead, influence like that should be used to advocate for the less fortunate users and build them up into something better.
Spoiler:
To begin with a point made by HylianDev, he mentioned that negativity against a certain individual is like a double-edged sword (I'm not sure if that's what he meant in that context, but that's what I got out of it). Due to how the real world works, I agree with this point. Sometimes, being the nice guy doesn't cut it. Not everyone is selfless and kind to others. Instead, they are either malicious or too dense to understand how a good society works. It's just how human nature works. When faced with people like this, it's okay to get more aggressive to make your point clear and show how they're in the wrong.
However, I only see this course of action as a last resort. The problem with some people (especially online) is that they think that resorting to this when it's not necessary is completely acceptable. Much like HylianDev mentioned, it causes more problems than it would if this kind of "tough love" is not thrown into the mix. Besides the fact that the victim is likely to end up mentally and emotionally unstable (possibly for years to come), the ones causing this kind of abuse are putting their reputations on the line regardless of the outcome. For example, if one of you guys (I'm not being specific here) decides to harshly call out an inexperienced user (it doesn't exactly matter if the user purposely ignores advice or not), then at least one other guy will look at you funny for not keeping your temper under control.
If this was a perfect world, this would be a good enough reason for the more experienced users to watch their own behavior. They work so hard to get the trust and support they have now, so I find it a bit foolish that they would put all that on the line without a second thought just to bring down another user they don't agree with. Unfortunately, this kind of incentive isn't as effective as it is on paper. One obvious flaw is that some of the more obnoxious users not concerned about their reputation to the point where they act nasty anyway; however, I feel like one of the bigger reasons for this kind of misbehavior comes from the fact that the more respected users do this and are unaware that they're acting out of line themselves.
Spoiler:
To begin explaining what I mean, let me bring up a point made by Kritter. He mentioned that the sense of entitlement the younger generation has become used to has grown, which I can agree with. Of course, this statement has inspired a point I'd like to add. If you consider what the past was like, a majority of the more respected users of this generation started out as little kids/early teenagers. While not all of them ended up like this, a certain number of them where immediately recognized for their keen talents in pixel art and other fan-based mediums (although, to be fair, the pool of quality fanworks and the like online wasn't as diverse or impressive as it is today). As a result, they got a solid amount of praise and recognition that only just grows through time. Eventually, we reach the point years later where those "prodigies" grow into their late teens/early-to-mid twenties. By then, most of them (if not all of them) are highly respected and considered online authorities in their respective field. In fact, many of these guys either created successful projects or had a hand in developing those projects (several spriters I'm familiar with mentioned that they're working on the art for indie games). As a result, users like those spent years of their lives in the limelight as they develop their talents under constant admiration.
By no means is this strictly the worst path of developing a reputation online. There are some people out there who are genuinely caring and have at least a significant degree of empathy for others. Whether they already have these traits from the start or develop them through their own interactions and observing other interactions hardly makes much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. In my opinion, users with these kinds of traits are perfectly fine for walking the road to success I just described; however, the issue I'm presenting is when the users who walk this path are lacking those previously mentioned traits.
Like I mentioned before, the users that follow this path end up with a lot of praise. While receiving praise in and of itself isn't a bad thing at all, it leads to problems if this praise is mostly one-sided. With little to no conflict in the lives of those users, they think that they are perfect and everyone loves them. Without a good exposure to critique and a mountain of similar opinions, those users develop the kind of logic that their thoughts and actions are absolute. Since this sort of thing goes on for years, it's very hard for these users to break from this kind of mindset. While these users don't aways show negative signs of this attitude, there's always the very real possibility that the wrong guy will show up and (most likely unwittingly) act as the kind of trigger for those users lashing out negatively. It gets worse when other users (especially more respected one and site staff) get involved. For the most part, they only see their favorite user receiving harassment and try to "help" with the situation. It honestly isn't a pretty sight and the victim is usually left severely disgruntled for a good reason.
Spoiler:
Speaking of the victims, I think it's a good idea to also address the kind of hardships they face. While I can't speak for all the users who are deemed immature (particularly the ones who outright refuse to change for the better in spite of years of critiques and harassment), several of those other users honestly want to be better. Much like my opinion regarding empathetic users walking the instant road to success, I'm not too concerned if the victims were either an upstanding user from the start or immature to an extent. All that matters in this case is if they have redeemable qualities and are willing to further improve themselves. Sure, it's frustrating to not get the kind of instant success other users get and get frequently bashed/threatened in certain worst-case scenarios; however, this is not a completely bad path if you end up following it. Since these users have been through a lot and go on for long periods of time without any major recognition, they usually end up acting humble, develop empathy for others with similar experiences, and overall act more appreciative of any kind of success.
In spite of this desirable outcome, this rougher road to success is hardly any better than the alternative. This is an obvious thing to mention, but not everyone who walks down this path ends up successful. If anything, the victims of these kind of experiences lead harder lives where they act highly bitter and are sometimes desperate to get out of the situation they are in. As a result, they wind up in more trouble than they originally bargained for. While I'm not necessarily implying that those guys are better than the bigots who caused them to act like that in the first place, I do think that's it's a good idea to understand why they act like that and hopefully help them out in a positive manner. Besides, if actually put it in perspective, letting the "immature" users get their way in those situations is hardly any more selfish than siding with the obnoxious, more talented users and overall making the "immature" users feel bad.
Before you interpret that statement as being excessively kind to bratty users with little to no redeemable qualities and that anyone should be punished for causing their tantrums, let me explain what I actually mean. Like I mentioned before, the talented, respected users treating certain other users like dirt received years of praise and support. Even if they are exposed for acting like this, it'll hardly make much of a difference because their reputation is enormous. In the eyes of everyone else, they think that it's just a big misunderstanding and their favorite creators can do no wrong. It gets worse when they try to reason why they acted like. Since everyone else is under the impression that those users have mature, intellectual logic, they will naturally buy everything they say. As a result, if they say that the victims are in the wrong instead of them, then that's where the problem is. These users gained the privilege of receiving all this respect and support from countless fans and content creators/admins alike, so the idea of abusing all that just to bring another user down for petty reasons is honestly quite selfish.
To add more weight to the situation, the victims of this kind of treatment tend to have a hard time recovering from that kind of abuse. Since they are considered biased and immature by the elite users and several other people online will side with those users, you can imagine what kind of toll that will have on their mental and emotional stability. Without any good way to solve this problem on their own, these users would either become depressed to various extents or lash out/go to extremes in desperate attempts to fix their problems. While I can see why the latter is a bad thing, I couldn't completely fault those users for acting like that. If anything, the elite users and everyone on their side are a part of the blame for provoking them to act like that in the first place and overall adding fuel to the fire regardless of their intentions. To make matters worse, I see it as a more serious situation if the consequences of those episodes linger for longer than what I see is reasonable.
Spoiler:
Sure, moments where misunderstandings and disagreements happen are nearly unavoidable, but I don't mind them as much as long as they remain what they are: moments. Ideally, both sides of the conflict should not hold any grudges and continue their lives as normal without any negativity shown in their words and actions. Obviously, the users who took the biggest toll in those moments are the ones left with a chip on their shoulders, but I see it as a reasonable, understandable result since they usually lack the means for recovering. These are the guys who lack any remarkable talent, barely have small followings and notable online recognition, and/or aren't as mature and wise as other people are. Even though it's perfectly possible that they'll eventually improve on any combination of those traits, the chances of that actually happening (with the possible exception of gaining more maturity and wisdom) are harshly impacted based on whether or not the users who sided against them hold any kind of beef towards them.
It's goes without saying that it's easier to despise anything that you hardly know/understand, which is a major factor in this situation. To most people, the victims of undesirable treatment are overall whiny and got what they deserve. This opinion is overall encouraged by both the more respected users and sometimes the friends of the casual observers, which further contributes to the problem I'm describing. Even if these viewers get to know the victims better, the possibility of at least a germ of a negatively biased view towards the victims still exists. Depending on how biased they are (if this even is the case), it could range from looking at the victims slightly funny to disbelieving everything they say and outright treating them poorly. As a final nail in the coffin, something like this doesn't always go away regardless of how well the victims have improved and made a name for themselves. As far as I know, they could become successful YouTube stars and are surprisingly far wiser than the biased users I mentioned; however, no amount of success will change the fact that the biased users will never let it down and give the victims are rough time if they even assume that the victims are doing something that looks off to them.
Throughout all of this, you can see that I'm constantly defending the guys who received unfavorable treatment. Well, the reason is that I honestly don't think that it makes any sense for those other users to treat the victims that way in the first place. You can argue that giving them a rough time provides invaluable character building and it's the only way to deal with someone terribly thick (I even touched upon both those points before), but does that make you any better than the guys who you think deserve that treatment in the first place? I realize that the victims tend to act outright whiny and lash out, but like I mentioned before, they have understandable reasons for acting like that. As for the guys dishing out out that treatment, they usually aren't in the same situation as their victims. The more talent, respect, and maturity a user has, the less I'm willing to express sympathy when they oppose another user they deem as "immature" (especially if the victim in question has redeemable qualities that'll help them fit into their group). As such, I feel at least uncomfortable when I realize that this kind of nonsense is coming from someone like an accomplished spriter with a seemingly friendly personality.
Spoiler:
As I said before, the successful users that I'm specifically mentioning usually live their online lives with one-sided praise and a string of notable accomplishments. Therefore, they lack the kind of empathy needed to deal with the more unfortunate users I described. In their mind, these "immature" users lack intelligence and manners, so they decide to help them in a way that is comparable to an angry parent disciplining a spoiled child. In spite of the possible effectiveness of that treatment, there still runs the risk that the victim will not take it so well. As a result, it leads to the situation getting escalated and more users (including admins and the equivalent of those guys) get involved to either defend the victim or support the respected user. Regardless of the outcome and whether or not the user who more or less started it has to answer for the situation, it could have been avoided if the user was a lot more tactful with their words and actions. This could just be me on this point, but unlike the victims, the more respected users should know better than to act like that in the first place.
Of course, what I just described is more or less the best case scenario regarding something like this. Once biased opinions and grudges get involved, that when the situation becomes completely ugly. To make matters worse, the victims of something like this don't even have to do anything remotely bad to provoke certain users. As such, it could be anything from saying the wrong thing to a petty creative difference. On top of that, it could even be one of the victim's friends/fans who would pull something this irrational. With this in mind, it becomes the equivalent of getting smacked with a splash of scalding oil. As you would expect, the victims of what I described almost never take it well.
It already becomes an upsetting situation of those users lash out irrationally over something trivial the victims have done and then sever ties with the victims, so eventually finding out that the abusers end up obtaining bigger and better things serves as the ultimate brick to the face. This probably would be innocent enough if the abusers end up mellowing out and more or less forgiving the victims/apologizing (which overall makes the victim look foolish if they still harbor a grudge), but this sometimes is not the case. Even with the success and bright future, the abusers still treat the victims unfairly, which ranges from blatantly ignoring them to continuing their abusive criticisms (with a few threats of calling the admin thrown in on occasion). Since not even a genuine apology and a promise to change for the better does any good at this point, it's completely natural for the victims to end up escalating the situation. Unfortunately, that leads to the primary reasons why I think talented, respected users have no business issuing negative backlash against other users who did something wrong (especially if thy either didn't mean it or the offense in question is outright petty).
Spoiler:
It already becomes a crummy situation if typical users get involved to discipline the victims with little to no empathy, so it's actually rather simple to imagine how worse everything gets if the users involved share a similar mindset to the abusers. Sure, these users might say that they'll help the victim in question and they sometimes act kind towards the victims initially, but this kind of facade falls away when they listen to the abuser's side of the story and get more and more bothered by the actions of the victims to the point of threatening the victims with certain punishments (even banning). At this point, the victims could defend themselves all they want to users like that, yet it hardly does anything to change their minds. Instead, this usually causes the users to spout out detailed lists of how the victims are in the wrong.
While I'm not necessarily against the ideas of listing the flaws of other users and distrusting others, I'm bothered by the whole situation I described for the following reasons: the hypocrisy, what is implied by the one-sided actions, and how avoidable the situation is. Starting with my first reason, I feel like the users slamming the victims is a giant "pot-calling-the-kettle-black" situation. Even if they give detailed lists of the problems with the victims regardless of how well the points hold up, a common trend I noticed is how they don't provide that same level of attention when explaining how they're in the right and their own flaws to the victims. To the more observant viewers who somehow managed to see these kind of things play out, a lot of the flaws these abusive users dish out are usually the same (or otherwise similar) flaws they possess. The two most common flaws these kind of users list are expressing negative bias and holding grudges. In the case of the victims, that can't be helped because they were more or less forced to adopt those traits. Since they constantly see the name of their abusers up in lights with thousands of other users relentlessly praising them, it's no surprise that they see that as a great injustice. While the victims are not exactly in the right for choosing more aggressive means of solving the problem, at least it's better than calling them out for harboring grudges and acting biased only to harbor a negative opinion against them and get on their case for every little thing they do.
Before anyone mentions it, I understand that I'm mostly talking about why holding negative opinions against other people is wrong. Not everyone is supposed to like the thing. I'm okay with everyone having less than positive opinions about virtually anything as long as they are respectful and does not boil down to mindless hatred. While there are notable exceptions of this principle, I don't see what the victims have to put up with as one of those exceptions. Sure, I know that it's unhealthy the victims to stress about some generic user who flat out hates their guts, but I'm not talking about them because they usually don't matter as much in the grand scheme of things. Starting my next reason, everything becomes risky for the victims if negative opinions against them come from users like respected creators and the staff on various web sites. If they have any sort of beef against the victims, what would honestly stop them from committing any kind of action against the victims? It's obvious that staff site could ban or otherwise punish the victims if they wanted to, but I can understand how it's a little harder to imagine what kind of damage the creators are capable of. Well, considering their influence, creators could easily sway the opinions of fans and other respected users alike. Taking that into account, if this doesn't lead to many potential blacklists situations, then the victims could end up getting nearly destroyed by a negative reputation that's sometimes almost impossible to reverse.
Spoiler:
It's scary to think that this is possible through misunderstandings, but what I find even more terrifying is if the abusers intended this to happen on purpose. I realize that it's not good to make an assumption like that, but the actions of the abusers makes this assumption a good possibility. Generally speaking, the abusers I mentioned have at least enough common sense not to anger another user and they do typically act friendly to anyone except the victims in question. In spite of the victims sometimes willing to forget about problems inflicted by the abusers and tend to change to satisfy the critiques of the abusers, the abusers usually refuse to even acknowledge this. On top of that, they choose to go on one-sided rants about the flaws of the victims in spite of how this could set them up as giant hypocrites. Going by those points, I'd say that the only reasons why the abusers act like that relates to personal gain and how easily they're able to get away with it.
In their mindset, I can imagine that catering to the mercy of the victims is hardly worth it and owning up to their overreactions could potentially put their pride and reputations on the line. Since they are high in the pecking order to hold that kind of influence and the victims already have traits and actions not everyone cares about, the abusers decide to use those factors to vilify the victims in an attempt to get out of actually helping them and turn them into their personal punching bags. What's worse is that there's no good way for the victims to succeed in a situation like this. If the victims try to lash out against the abusers, then the abusers will use that opportunity to justify poor treatment against them. Likewise, if the victims choose to give into the initial abuse and move on, then this pretty much gives the abusers what they more or less wanted in the first place and gives them the message that it's okay to act like this the next time another situation like this pops up. It also doesn't help that if the latter happens, then the victims tend to keep those negative feelings bottled up for years as keep getting bombarded by both the further encouragement the abusers receive and the negative reactions from users who believe the abusers. Once the straw that breaks the camel's back comes into play and the abusers still harbor negative feelings, then this conflict begins again with the added backlash of the victims holding a grudge for longer than what is considered healthy. I'm not saying that this kind of maliciousness in present in all situations like this, but I feel like this is what it could boil down to if conflicts like these are left unchecked.
To begin concluding this lengthy discussion, I'd like to explore my final reason for why I dislike these situations. Even if the victims are sometimes unable to help themselves from acting out of line, that's hardly a reason for the more successful/rational users to stop acting like the bigger man. The way I see it, they spent a longer amount of time on a pedestal far more impressive than the victims, so using that kind influence to help instead of hinder the victims is far from an unreasonable request. I know that giving the victims advice and expecting them to solve their own problems by themselves is helpful, but that sometimes doesn't cut it (especially if the advice in question is only to let it go and move on). If anything, it tends to be worth going the extra mile as it's more or less an investment with a promising payoff. I find it rewarding enough to at least humor the victims to the point where they never bring up their problems again. Still, regardless if you're willing to jump through those kinds of hoops or not, then the least anyone could do is not make the situation worse. Even if you lack the kind of emotional involvement to dislike the victims, acting even the slightest bit condescending has a chance of escalating the problem to unhealthy levels. Just because you you guys have obvious advantages over the victims doesn't mean that you have to use them to belittle the less fortunate users. Besides, if it comes down to where you guys are simply incapable of helping the victims for whatever reason, then a much better idea is to simply ignore them and see if someone else could intervene to (hopefully) provide at least a fair compromise to the whole situation.
In spite of my thoughts spanning several paragraphs, I hope that there are at least some points you guys can agree on. I've been keeping these thoughts mostly to myself for a very long time and saw this thread as a good chance to express them. Again, this post isn't meant to antagonize either side of this problem, but it's meant to address how it affects both sides. I may have sounded like that the more talented users are causing all the trouble, but that's only because that I feel like it's their responsibility to advocate for less talented users when they are unable to stand up for themselves. Unless these "victims" in question lack the determination to change and/or have completely selfish reasons for stirring trouble, then it wouldn't hurt to have patience and at least understand them better. Biased opinions and hypocrisy are the general causes of these molehills turning out mountains, so keeping those two factors out will prevent toxic users being placed on untouchable pedestals and their victims turning just as nasty as they are.
I read over the bulk of this topic and there are a lot of points that I honestly agree with several points in it. I hope you guys don't mind, but I'd like to comment on those points and share my own thoughts on this matter. Some of this is me speaking from personal experiences, but I'll make sure that I don't directly mention anyone to avoid stirring up the pot unintentionally.
By the way, since this is quite a hefty read, I took the liberty of dividing my discussion into multiple spoilers. Of course, I also provided a summery of my points just to give you the base idea.
Even though it's okay to negatively act against other users, it should be saved as a last resort. Ideally, the more experienced users should provide more patience with new users who are sometimes dismissed as dense and immature. Also, the experienced users usually have some sort of power over other users to the point where they could manipulate them to act however they want and sway the opinions of even rationally thinking users. My big concern is to make sure those two factors are not abused to drive the less experienced users into acting irrational and overall keep them as outcasts. Instead, influence like that should be used to advocate for the less fortunate users and build them up into something better.
[spoiler]To begin with a point made by HylianDev, he mentioned that negativity against a certain individual is like a double-edged sword (I'm not sure if that's what he meant in that context, but that's what I got out of it). Due to how the real world works, I agree with this point. Sometimes, being the nice guy doesn't cut it. Not everyone is selfless and kind to others. Instead, they are either malicious or too dense to understand how a good society works. It's just how human nature works. When faced with people like this, it's okay to get more aggressive to make your point clear and show how they're in the wrong.
However, I only see this course of action as a last resort. The problem with some people (especially online) is that they think that resorting to this when it's not necessary is completely acceptable. Much like HylianDev mentioned, it causes more problems than it would if this kind of "tough love" is not thrown into the mix. Besides the fact that the victim is likely to end up mentally and emotionally unstable (possibly for years to come), the ones causing this kind of abuse are putting their reputations on the line regardless of the outcome. For example, if one of you guys (I'm not being specific here) decides to harshly call out an inexperienced user (it doesn't exactly matter if the user purposely ignores advice or not), then at least one other guy will look at you funny for not keeping your temper under control.
If this was a perfect world, this would be a good enough reason for the more experienced users to watch their own behavior. They work so hard to get the trust and support they have now, so I find it a bit foolish that they would put all that on the line without a second thought just to bring down another user they don't agree with. Unfortunately, this kind of incentive isn't as effective as it is on paper. One obvious flaw is that some of the more obnoxious users not concerned about their reputation to the point where they act nasty anyway; however, I feel like one of the bigger reasons for this kind of misbehavior comes from the fact that the more respected users do this and are unaware that they're acting out of line themselves.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]To begin explaining what I mean, let me bring up a point made by Kritter. He mentioned that the sense of entitlement the younger generation has become used to has grown, which I can agree with. Of course, this statement has inspired a point I'd like to add. If you consider what the past was like, a majority of the more respected users of this generation started out as little kids/early teenagers. While not all of them ended up like this, a certain number of them where immediately recognized for their keen talents in pixel art and other fan-based mediums (although, to be fair, the pool of quality fanworks and the like online wasn't as diverse or impressive as it is today). As a result, they got a solid amount of praise and recognition that only just grows through time. Eventually, we reach the point years later where those "prodigies" grow into their late teens/early-to-mid twenties. By then, most of them (if not all of them) are highly respected and considered online authorities in their respective field. In fact, many of these guys either created successful projects or had a hand in developing those projects (several spriters I'm familiar with mentioned that they're working on the art for indie games). As a result, users like those spent years of their lives in the limelight as they develop their talents under constant admiration.
By no means is this strictly the worst path of developing a reputation online. There are some people out there who are genuinely caring and have at least a significant degree of empathy for others. Whether they already have these traits from the start or develop them through their own interactions and observing other interactions hardly makes much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. In my opinion, users with these kinds of traits are perfectly fine for walking the road to success I just described; however, the issue I'm presenting is when the users who walk this path are lacking those previously mentioned traits.
Like I mentioned before, the users that follow this path end up with a lot of praise. While receiving praise in and of itself isn't a bad thing at all, it leads to problems if this praise is mostly one-sided. With little to no conflict in the lives of those users, they think that they are perfect and everyone loves them. Without a good exposure to critique and a mountain of similar opinions, those users develop the kind of logic that their thoughts and actions are absolute. Since this sort of thing goes on for years, it's very hard for these users to break from this kind of mindset. While these users don't aways show negative signs of this attitude, there's always the very real possibility that the wrong guy will show up and (most likely unwittingly) act as the kind of trigger for those users lashing out negatively. It gets worse when other users (especially more respected one and site staff) get involved. For the most part, they only see their favorite user receiving harassment and try to "help" with the situation. It honestly isn't a pretty sight and the victim is usually left severely disgruntled for a good reason.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Speaking of the victims, I think it's a good idea to also address the kind of hardships they face. While I can't speak for all the users who are deemed immature (particularly the ones who outright refuse to change for the better in spite of years of critiques and harassment), several of those other users honestly want to be better. Much like my opinion regarding empathetic users walking the instant road to success, I'm not too concerned if the victims were either an upstanding user from the start or immature to an extent. All that matters in this case is if they have redeemable qualities and are willing to further improve themselves. Sure, it's frustrating to not get the kind of instant success other users get and get frequently bashed/threatened in certain worst-case scenarios; however, this is not a completely bad path if you end up following it. Since these users have been through a lot and go on for long periods of time without any major recognition, they usually end up acting humble, develop empathy for others with similar experiences, and overall act more appreciative of any kind of success.
In spite of this desirable outcome, this rougher road to success is hardly any better than the alternative. This is an obvious thing to mention, but not everyone who walks down this path ends up successful. If anything, the victims of these kind of experiences lead harder lives where they act highly bitter and are sometimes desperate to get out of the situation they are in. As a result, they wind up in more trouble than they originally bargained for. While I'm not necessarily implying that those guys are better than the bigots who caused them to act like that in the first place, I do think that's it's a good idea to understand why they act like that and hopefully help them out in a positive manner. Besides, if actually put it in perspective, letting the "immature" users get their way in those situations is hardly any more selfish than siding with the obnoxious, more talented users and overall making the "immature" users feel bad.
Before you interpret that statement as being excessively kind to bratty users with little to no redeemable qualities and that anyone should be punished for causing their tantrums, let me explain what I actually mean. Like I mentioned before, the talented, respected users treating certain other users like dirt received years of praise and support. Even if they are exposed for acting like this, it'll hardly make much of a difference because their reputation is enormous. In the eyes of everyone else, they think that it's just a big misunderstanding and their favorite creators can do no wrong. It gets worse when they try to reason why they acted like. Since everyone else is under the impression that those users have mature, intellectual logic, they will naturally buy everything they say. As a result, if they say that the victims are in the wrong instead of them, then that's where the problem is. These users gained the privilege of receiving all this respect and support from countless fans and content creators/admins alike, so the idea of abusing all that just to bring another user down for petty reasons is honestly quite selfish.
To add more weight to the situation, the victims of this kind of treatment tend to have a hard time recovering from that kind of abuse. Since they are considered biased and immature by the elite users and several other people online will side with those users, you can imagine what kind of toll that will have on their mental and emotional stability. Without any good way to solve this problem on their own, these users would either become depressed to various extents or lash out/go to extremes in desperate attempts to fix their problems. While I can see why the latter is a bad thing, I couldn't completely fault those users for acting like that. If anything, the elite users and everyone on their side are a part of the blame for provoking them to act like that in the first place and overall adding fuel to the fire regardless of their intentions. To make matters worse, I see it as a more serious situation if the consequences of those episodes linger for longer than what I see is reasonable.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Sure, moments where misunderstandings and disagreements happen are nearly unavoidable, but I don't mind them as much as long as they remain what they are: moments. Ideally, both sides of the conflict should not hold any grudges and continue their lives as normal without any negativity shown in their words and actions. Obviously, the users who took the biggest toll in those moments are the ones left with a chip on their shoulders, but I see it as a reasonable, understandable result since they usually lack the means for recovering. These are the guys who lack any remarkable talent, barely have small followings and notable online recognition, and/or aren't as mature and wise as other people are. Even though it's perfectly possible that they'll eventually improve on any combination of those traits, the chances of that actually happening (with the possible exception of gaining more maturity and wisdom) are harshly impacted based on whether or not the users who sided against them hold any kind of beef towards them.
It's goes without saying that it's easier to despise anything that you hardly know/understand, which is a major factor in this situation. To most people, the victims of undesirable treatment are overall whiny and got what they deserve. This opinion is overall encouraged by both the more respected users and sometimes the friends of the casual observers, which further contributes to the problem I'm describing. Even if these viewers get to know the victims better, the possibility of at least a germ of a negatively biased view towards the victims still exists. Depending on how biased they are (if this even is the case), it could range from looking at the victims slightly funny to disbelieving everything they say and outright treating them poorly. As a final nail in the coffin, something like this doesn't always go away regardless of how well the victims have improved and made a name for themselves. As far as I know, they could become successful YouTube stars and are surprisingly far wiser than the biased users I mentioned; however, no amount of success will change the fact that the biased users will never let it down and give the victims are rough time if they even assume that the victims are doing something that looks off to them.
Throughout all of this, you can see that I'm constantly defending the guys who received unfavorable treatment. Well, the reason is that I honestly don't think that it makes any sense for those other users to treat the victims that way in the first place. You can argue that giving them a rough time provides invaluable character building and it's the only way to deal with someone terribly thick (I even touched upon both those points before), but does that make you any better than the guys who you think deserve that treatment in the first place? I realize that the victims tend to act outright whiny and lash out, but like I mentioned before, they have understandable reasons for acting like that. As for the guys dishing out out that treatment, they usually aren't in the same situation as their victims. The more talent, respect, and maturity a user has, the less I'm willing to express sympathy when they oppose another user they deem as "immature" (especially if the victim in question has redeemable qualities that'll help them fit into their group). As such, I feel at least uncomfortable when I realize that this kind of nonsense is coming from someone like an accomplished spriter with a seemingly friendly personality.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]As I said before, the successful users that I'm specifically mentioning usually live their online lives with one-sided praise and a string of notable accomplishments. Therefore, they lack the kind of empathy needed to deal with the more unfortunate users I described. In their mind, these "immature" users lack intelligence and manners, so they decide to help them in a way that is comparable to an angry parent disciplining a spoiled child. In spite of the possible effectiveness of that treatment, there still runs the risk that the victim will not take it so well. As a result, it leads to the situation getting escalated and more users (including admins and the equivalent of those guys) get involved to either defend the victim or support the respected user. Regardless of the outcome and whether or not the user who more or less started it has to answer for the situation, it could have been avoided if the user was a lot more tactful with their words and actions. This could just be me on this point, but unlike the victims, the more respected users should know better than to act like that in the first place.
Of course, what I just described is more or less the best case scenario regarding something like this. Once biased opinions and grudges get involved, that when the situation becomes completely ugly. To make matters worse, the victims of something like this don't even have to do anything remotely bad to provoke certain users. As such, it could be anything from saying the wrong thing to a petty creative difference. On top of that, it could even be one of the victim's friends/fans who would pull something this irrational. With this in mind, it becomes the equivalent of getting smacked with a splash of scalding oil. As you would expect, the victims of what I described almost never take it well.
It already becomes an upsetting situation of those users lash out irrationally over something trivial the victims have done and then sever ties with the victims, so eventually finding out that the abusers end up obtaining bigger and better things serves as the ultimate brick to the face. This probably would be innocent enough if the abusers end up mellowing out and more or less forgiving the victims/apologizing (which overall makes the victim look foolish if they still harbor a grudge), but this sometimes is not the case. Even with the success and bright future, the abusers still treat the victims unfairly, which ranges from blatantly ignoring them to continuing their abusive criticisms (with a few threats of calling the admin thrown in on occasion). Since not even a genuine apology and a promise to change for the better does any good at this point, it's completely natural for the victims to end up escalating the situation. Unfortunately, that leads to the primary reasons why I think talented, respected users have no business issuing negative backlash against other users who did something wrong (especially if thy either didn't mean it or the offense in question is outright petty).[/spoiler]
[spoiler]It already becomes a crummy situation if typical users get involved to discipline the victims with little to no empathy, so it's actually rather simple to imagine how worse everything gets if the users involved share a similar mindset to the abusers. Sure, these users might say that they'll help the victim in question and they sometimes act kind towards the victims initially, but this kind of facade falls away when they listen to the abuser's side of the story and get more and more bothered by the actions of the victims to the point of threatening the victims with certain punishments (even banning). At this point, the victims could defend themselves all they want to users like that, yet it hardly does anything to change their minds. Instead, this usually causes the users to spout out detailed lists of how the victims are in the wrong.
While I'm not necessarily against the ideas of listing the flaws of other users and distrusting others, I'm bothered by the whole situation I described for the following reasons: the hypocrisy, what is implied by the one-sided actions, and how avoidable the situation is. Starting with my first reason, I feel like the users slamming the victims is a giant "pot-calling-the-kettle-black" situation. Even if they give detailed lists of the problems with the victims regardless of how well the points hold up, a common trend I noticed is how they don't provide that same level of attention when explaining how they're in the right and their own flaws to the victims. To the more observant viewers who somehow managed to see these kind of things play out, a lot of the flaws these abusive users dish out are usually the same (or otherwise similar) flaws they possess. The two most common flaws these kind of users list are expressing negative bias and holding grudges. In the case of the victims, that can't be helped because they were more or less forced to adopt those traits. Since they constantly see the name of their abusers up in lights with thousands of other users relentlessly praising them, it's no surprise that they see that as a great injustice. While the victims are not exactly in the right for choosing more aggressive means of solving the problem, at least it's better than calling them out for harboring grudges and acting biased only to harbor a negative opinion against them and get on their case for every little thing they do.
Before anyone mentions it, I understand that I'm mostly talking about why holding negative opinions against other people is wrong. Not everyone is supposed to like the thing. I'm okay with everyone having less than positive opinions about virtually anything as long as they are respectful and does not boil down to mindless hatred. While there are notable exceptions of this principle, I don't see what the victims have to put up with as one of those exceptions. Sure, I know that it's unhealthy the victims to stress about some generic user who flat out hates their guts, but I'm not talking about them because they usually don't matter as much in the grand scheme of things. Starting my next reason, everything becomes risky for the victims if negative opinions against them come from users like respected creators and the staff on various web sites. If they have any sort of beef against the victims, what would honestly stop them from committing any kind of action against the victims? It's obvious that staff site could ban or otherwise punish the victims if they wanted to, but I can understand how it's a little harder to imagine what kind of damage the creators are capable of. Well, considering their influence, creators could easily sway the opinions of fans and other respected users alike. Taking that into account, if this doesn't lead to many potential blacklists situations, then the victims could end up getting nearly destroyed by a negative reputation that's sometimes almost impossible to reverse.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]It's scary to think that this is possible through misunderstandings, but what I find even more terrifying is if the abusers intended this to happen on purpose. I realize that it's not good to make an assumption like that, but the actions of the abusers makes this assumption a good possibility. Generally speaking, the abusers I mentioned have at least enough common sense not to anger another user and they do typically act friendly to anyone except the victims in question. In spite of the victims sometimes willing to forget about problems inflicted by the abusers and tend to change to satisfy the critiques of the abusers, the abusers usually refuse to even acknowledge this. On top of that, they choose to go on one-sided rants about the flaws of the victims in spite of how this could set them up as giant hypocrites. Going by those points, I'd say that the only reasons why the abusers act like that relates to personal gain and how easily they're able to get away with it.
In their mindset, I can imagine that catering to the mercy of the victims is hardly worth it and owning up to their overreactions could potentially put their pride and reputations on the line. Since they are high in the pecking order to hold that kind of influence and the victims already have traits and actions not everyone cares about, the abusers decide to use those factors to vilify the victims in an attempt to get out of actually helping them and turn them into their personal punching bags. What's worse is that there's no good way for the victims to succeed in a situation like this. If the victims try to lash out against the abusers, then the abusers will use that opportunity to justify poor treatment against them. Likewise, if the victims choose to give into the initial abuse and move on, then this pretty much gives the abusers what they more or less wanted in the first place and gives them the message that it's okay to act like this the next time another situation like this pops up. It also doesn't help that if the latter happens, then the victims tend to keep those negative feelings bottled up for years as keep getting bombarded by both the further encouragement the abusers receive and the negative reactions from users who believe the abusers. Once the straw that breaks the camel's back comes into play and the abusers still harbor negative feelings, then this conflict begins again with the added backlash of the victims holding a grudge for longer than what is considered healthy. I'm not saying that this kind of maliciousness in present in all situations like this, but I feel like this is what it could boil down to if conflicts like these are left unchecked.
To begin concluding this lengthy discussion, I'd like to explore my final reason for why I dislike these situations. Even if the victims are sometimes unable to help themselves from acting out of line, that's hardly a reason for the more successful/rational users to stop acting like the bigger man. The way I see it, they spent a longer amount of time on a pedestal far more impressive than the victims, so using that kind influence to help instead of hinder the victims is far from an unreasonable request. I know that giving the victims advice and expecting them to solve their own problems by themselves is helpful, but that sometimes doesn't cut it (especially if the advice in question is only to let it go and move on). If anything, it tends to be worth going the extra mile as it's more or less an investment with a promising payoff. I find it rewarding enough to at least humor the victims to the point where they never bring up their problems again. Still, regardless if you're willing to jump through those kinds of hoops or not, then the least anyone could do is not make the situation worse. Even if you lack the kind of emotional involvement to dislike the victims, acting even the slightest bit condescending has a chance of escalating the problem to unhealthy levels. Just because you you guys have obvious advantages over the victims doesn't mean that you have to use them to belittle the less fortunate users. Besides, if it comes down to where you guys are simply incapable of helping the victims for whatever reason, then a much better idea is to simply ignore them and see if someone else could intervene to (hopefully) provide at least a fair compromise to the whole situation.
In spite of my thoughts spanning several paragraphs, I hope that there are at least some points you guys can agree on. I've been keeping these thoughts mostly to myself for a very long time and saw this thread as a good chance to express them. Again, this post isn't meant to antagonize either side of this problem, but it's meant to address how it affects both sides. I may have sounded like that the more talented users are causing all the trouble, but that's only because that I feel like it's their responsibility to advocate for less talented users when they are unable to stand up for themselves. Unless these "victims" in question lack the determination to change and/or have completely selfish reasons for stirring trouble, then it wouldn't hurt to have patience and at least understand them better. Biased opinions and hypocrisy are the general causes of these molehills turning out mountains, so keeping those two factors out will prevent toxic users being placed on untouchable pedestals and their victims turning just as nasty as they are.[/spoiler]
Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:45 pm
Resident Ninnyhammer
Now see, that is the kind of post that would be very likely to get a TL;DR response. Nonetheless, I have a response from what I read shortly before being overwhelmed by text:
E-Man wrote:
To begin explaining what I mean, let me bring up a point made by Kritter. He mentioned that the sense of entitlement the younger generation has become used to has grown, which I can agree with.
Virtually every aged generation has complained about the younger generation being "entitled". This blame game has gone on since ancient times.
What I find amusing about the complaint is that it comes from people who should have raised the new generation. Methinks if kids were raised like they were supposed to be, the older generations would not have as much cause to complain--but I guess self-analysis and critical thinking are not nearly as satisfying as pointing fingers. Alas, the cycle will continue as the new generation makes way for a newer generation. The apple does not fall far from the tree.
Now see, that is the kind of post that would be very likely to get a TL;DR response. Nonetheless, I have a response from what I read shortly before being overwhelmed by text:
[quote="E-Man"]To begin explaining what I mean, let me bring up a point made by Kritter. He mentioned that the sense of entitlement the younger generation has become used to has grown, which I can agree with.[/quote]
Virtually every aged generation has complained about the younger generation being "entitled". This blame game has gone on since ancient times.
What I find amusing about the complaint is that it comes from people who [i]should have raised the new generation[/i]. Methinks if kids were raised like they were supposed to be, the older generations would not have as much cause to complain--but I guess self-analysis and critical thinking are not nearly as satisfying as pointing fingers. Alas, the cycle will continue as the new generation makes way for a newer generation. The apple does not fall far from the tree.
Incidentally, I feel it is necessary to point out that [url=http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2013/12/20/the-average-felon-is-getting-older/]the average age of people arrested for felonies has increased[/url].
Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:00 pm
Not banned.
Cap'n Coconuts wrote:
Virtually every aged generation has complained about the younger generation being "entitled". This blame game has gone on since ancient times.
Got a source for that nugget of "information"? Preferably written on papyrus or a stone tablet?
[quote="Cap'n Coconuts"]Virtually every aged generation has complained about the younger generation being "entitled". This blame game has gone on since ancient times.[/quote]
Got a source for that nugget of "information"? Preferably written on papyrus or a stone tablet?
Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:37 am
Resident Ninnyhammer
Kritter wrote:
Got a source for that nugget of "information"? Preferably written on papyrus or a stone tablet?
Book III of Odes, written by Horace, circa 20 B.C.
Quote:
Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We, their sons, are more worthless than they; so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt.
I rest my case. Good day.
[quote="Kritter"]Got a source for that nugget of "information"? Preferably written on papyrus or a stone tablet?[/quote]
Book III of [i]Odes[/i], written by Horace, circa 20 B.C.
[quote]Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We, their sons, are more worthless than they; so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt.[/quote]
I rest my case. Good day.
Post subject: Re: An important public service message
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:49 am
Not banned.
Aha, so this information is supposed to say that there is no sense of entitlement in the current generation of children? Seems a convenient way for kids to excuse their behavior if you ask me.
Aha, so this information is supposed to say that there is no sense of entitlement in the current generation of children? Seems a convenient way for kids to excuse their behavior if you ask me.
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