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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:45 pm 
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It doesn't debunk anything, it's simply your opinion. And I referenced all of your opinions right here:

Quote:
I disagree with pretty much everything you've said.


Give me specifics on when history has been an issue on the forums, to the detriment of the forums and website as a whole.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Well, may as well give my thoughts on this stuff:

Quality Control

It does exist. As VinnyVideo said in an interview on my site, there's actually quite a lot of horrendous crap that gets rejected long before anyone here sees it. For example, this fan game got rejected for... well obvious reasons:



He also sent me examples of rejected graphics, which about as bad as they sound:

Image

Image

Stuff certainly does get rejected here. It's just that the quality bar is set a bit lower than some people would like.

Which is at least better than other most other game development sites. SMW Central is probably the strictest where guidelines are concerned, but SMB X.org is a tad less strict than MFGG, indie dev sites like Open Game Art don't have quality control at all (nor make any efforts to assure the resources accepted are enough to make a game or even level from) and well, you know what Steam or the app stores of the world look like now. Google's idea of quality control makes MFGG look like the Oscars by comparison.

So yeah, standards are low, but at least they exist here.

DMCA

Eh, it's mostly the same paranoia across the internet.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:54 pm 
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HylianDev wrote:
I'm going to give the entire post a read and respond to more issues, but I'd just like to put this here:

Mors wrote:
This is really similar to what happened with the whole The Lockening incident. People criticized the staff for their decisions, and the staff responded with just locking those topics, without giving a proper explanation, and this made people mad. Heck, even some of the staff members simply ran away. The chaos ended when Cruise decided to explain that they were indeed listening to the criticism. That was it, after that everyone calmed down.

The problem with both incidents is that the staff is simply unable to communicate well with the members, especially when things get tense. Like how the staff couldn’t figure out to tell the members that they were indeed listening to the criticism?

Quote:
[10:25 PM] C-SPAN: I'm fine with listening to my members. After this is over we'll probably poll the people who are active here for what they should do
[10:25 PM] C-SPAN: This is a problem
[10:25 PM] StirlADrei: You won't poll,
[10:25 PM] StirlADrei: We know this.
[10:25 PM] StirlADrei: The admins said.

June 10th, day of. I'd hate to bring up old quotes from a series of nasty conversations in which nobody looked good, but from the time it happened the staff was saying that we would listen to criticism.

It took more than saying we'd listen to criticism to change things; it took every single individual on both sides calming down and not getting riled up again for it to be over.

To be fair, he was right, the members were never polled about the situation afterwards.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:58 pm 
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I'm also going to be real with all of you here: the fact that we put so much effort into logging and keeping drama in our wiki instead of stuff relevant to fangames and resources to make them is a huge turnoff for several people I've approached about coming here to post their games over the years.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:58 pm 
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Pedigree wrote:
To be fair, he was right, the members were never polled about the situation afterwards.

Lmao yeah that's true

I think the polling idea just got lost in the mess

But it did lead to changes, more MW crossover (MW to MFGG rather than vice versa), a couple MWers on staff (I count you ped), etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Pedigree wrote:
I'm also going to be real with all of you here: the fact that we put so much effort into logging and keeping drama in our wiki instead of stuff relevant to fangames and resources to make them is a huge turnoff for several people I've approached about coming here to post their games over the years.


Why do these mystery people care? If they only want to post fangames and the historical information in the wiki isn't about them then it sounds like they have nothing to be concerned about to me.

It's not like wiping out the wiki will suddenly make MFGG a super awesome place to belong. Not sure what you're expecting from it to be honest.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:47 pm 
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Not being the Encyclopedia Dramatica of Fangames makes MFGG a more welcoming and inviting place rather than a place for old grumps to ramble about how terrible the past was.

Cataloging the drama to the degree that we do implies it's as important as fangames and fangame resources, when we should be distancing ourselves from The Lockening and The Split when we've moved on from it instead of holding onto it forever in the archives so you can drudge it up one day and reminisce on how RIGHT you were while everyone else was wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:48 pm 
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I found MFGG to be daunting when I joined three years ago. I spent a lot of time on the wiki, learning the site history, and I eventually garnered great enjoyment from updating and editing the wiki. I overhauled a lot of pages to be more standardized and vastly more comprehensive, and I assume Q-Nova felt similarly (some say he's still adding article tags to this day...)

EDIT: Oh wait, he is!!

If we
Code:
delet
the wiki, we won't gain any meaningful "clean slate", we'll just be severing an integral piece of MFGG's appeal. The problem with the wiki is that nobody cares enough to keep it regularly updated across the board, and for three years I have seen people consistently complain that "some pages aren't getting enough love", or "my page is outdated and makes me look bad". I have seen multiple people, most notably KirbyLover and Vitiman, express apprehension towards editing their own articles because of how it may reflect on their self image.

If anything, we need to further integrate the wiki into MFGG, because as of now it's sorta just an extension of the site dangling on a ledge, where people occasionally poke and prod at it, but nobody really cares. Interacting with the wiki was appealing to me even before I started actively developing fangames, and I think it could help give our hypothetical player community members something to engage with that requires less effort than game development.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:50 pm 
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Great post Mors, it's great to see that kind of passion for this place.

I think my main contribution for this thread is that to me MFGG has always felt more of a vanity site than really a great resource for fan games (both on the development side and the Power to the Players side). This is baked into nearly every aspect of the site, from the clique-esque nature of the staff, to the wiki (which is nearly 100% vanity articles LOL), even to the people who submit garbage to the site just because they want to be On the site. Maybe there was some attempt to fix this at some point with like badges... but that just feels like more Showing Off than an actual reward for doing anything.

I really like the idea of making the site more player focused. Even if that's not the route we take, we should take some serious consideration into how we want the site to be used. Listening to feedback is a start but there's plenty of other things we can do, for example, thinking about the kinds of people we want to visit the site and working to tailor it to make their experience optimal. (here's an overview of this kind of technique being used). I'd love to see what we could come up with if we tackled it from that angle (or other angles).

A summary I guess is that MFGG has always felt like more of a vanity site to me, rather than one you actually expect people to use.

Anyway I'll hijack the thread with some suggestions of my own. My vision for MFGG probably doesn't line up with anyone else's but I'm sure by putting our heads together we can come up with some great ideas to move forward.

As I mentioned before the staff has always felt like a clique. In the darkest times, the staff feels like a clique with some serious disdain and lack of trust for the members, but even in the Good times it still feels like a clique rather than a staff team willing to work with the members to create the best possible experience. I believe it's possible to fix this, with some restructuring of how we do things.

The most important thing I think is staff accountability. We should have some standard staff guidelines that generally should be followed by the staff and lets the members know what they can expect from the staff. It would give us a solid rubric to argue when the staff crosses a line- and if the guidelines themselves aren't good we can argue about changing them instead of attacking staff members for just doing what they're supposed to do. I think having a feeling that the staff can be held accountable will bring a lot of confidence to people who have trust issues with them (and often times, people's trust issues with the staff are very well founded).

Another idea I think would help out is some restructuring of the staff roles. I don't think it makes sense for community leaders to be moderators or technical developers to always be moderators either. These are all pretty separate jobs and combining them all into one role because that's how the Software does it just isn't the right approach. Some people are excellent community leaders and love to work with the community and keep us updated (like Pedigree). Some people are great at moderating discussions and working with the members to keep the site safe and clean for everyone. And some people are just good at weird technical issues. Yes, there's often overlap but I think that'd be someone who has shown some exceptional ability there rather than just give them access over everything. Additionally, I think that there should be one or two community representatives elected and made part of staff discussions (but not given any other power) so it feels like the community can have a say.

The other big topic is something I suppose Mors and Mit touched on a bit. We really shouldn't be keeping History around for history's sake cluttering up the quality of our resource database. The wiki too, should be deleted and replaced IF there's any interest in making an actual useful fangame resource wiki. There's nothing _wrong_ with historical content, but it's the kind of thing that should probably be left on the forums and not making a mess out of other areas of the site.

@Mit I don't really agree with a rebrand. If you want to make a site that isn't MFGG, you can do that, maybe even affiliate with MFGG. I'm sure there's plenty of people who would be willing to help out in some way or another if there's enough interest in it! I definitely think the world of fan games or game development could use some more options for sites or communities to go to.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:21 pm 
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As MFGG's self appointed unofficial positive PR koopa, I can see what you're saying.
Though a lot of the things you say, like wiki entries and sprites that arent the absolute best, I'm of the feeling that those don't really do any harm. If anything, they'll get ignored. Plus there's been a lot of weird and wonderful events from years ago that have been put in the wiki and I'm not the most 100% on doing anything to those.

 
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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:28 pm 
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i think if the wiki must stay, its current state of "record everything that happens to the site" should be made unofficial. the wiki already gets very little attention when it comes to new pages and edits, so come newer iterations of the boards we could keep it "archived" and should interest in a wiki re-arise it should be made with a fresh set of solid rules and guidelines that focus on things like game development and less on the site's history. just applying new gamedev stuff to the current wiki seems like a bad idea, because there's a lot of fluff on the current wiki that very few people get anything out of.

if anything, we should be wondering why the wiki is inactive in the first place- if nobody has interest in it, then there must be something wrong. it's just a matter of figuring out WHAT is wrong.

EDIT: i'm gonna stick to my guns about a lot of the things i proposed for a rebrand but step down from the idea of having a rebrand in of itself. there's a lot of things that we keep around for literally no reason beyond "its already there/its worked before" even when proven outdated, ineffective, or even negative in its usefulness. in this way it feels like sometimes staff lacks a real vision for what they wanna do, which causes things to go in all kinds of directions for better or worse. we should probably work out the details of the new software and what it will entail (both in terms of structure as well as rules and the kind of atmosphere we want to try to achieve) publicly so everyone has an idea of what's going on.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:59 pm 
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I guess by rebrand I just mean like, the name MFGG. Everything else should be fair game to criticize (including other brand elements- if it can even be considered a consistent brand (?)). We shouldn't keep something around if it doesn't meet this criteria:
- It makes sense.
- It works.

Things that only meet one of those... need some serious rethinking.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:52 pm 
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I'm gonna go ahead and reiterate that we have articles dedicated to members who got banned over ten years ago. I don't care how you spin that, that's completely 100% irrelevant to this website now. Hell, it was irrelevant when it happened. These people usually didn't even make games or submit sprites or anything even back then, keeping up this weird shrine in their honour isn't doing anyone any favours.

But what if they don't want it taken down? I can almost guarantee that none of them care. In fact, I'd be surprised if half of them remember the place. I think having a wiki can be a great thing! But you're using it all wrong! As Mario put it (god that's weird to say), almost the entirety of the wiki is vanity articles. Literally paragraphs of things like "So-and-so is a member who frequents the Casual Conversation Castle, and is known to hit on She-and-so a lot more than is deemed comfortable by That Guy Over There. It's well known that Admin Who Hasn't Been On The Site In Well Over Seven Years heavily dislikes So-and-so, but So-and-so is known for having created the much applauded 'Hitler Taco' fad of '08, a fad so important and so monumental that nobody remembers it."

It's not worth preserving, guys.

 
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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:43 pm 
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I think the issue against the wiki's thorough documentation of petty drama is pretty valid. When I first discovered the wiki I tried using it to look up information on some fan games, but I found very little regarding actual fan games in comparison to what I found about users who caused some ruckus years and years ago. Pinning up people's misconduct for everyone to see is irrelevant to the site's purpose and is kind of unprofessional.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:23 am 
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So what, you take down the wiki... and then?

What happens?

Absolutely nothing. It's not the wiki that's lacking activity, it's the whole website and the wiki having a few "vanity articles" is not the root of the problem nor is its removal the solution.

I also find it ironic that people keep dredging up the past in their arguments, mentioning things like "The Lockening" which, ahaha, I had to turn to the Wiki to find out exactly what you were going on about.


Last edited by Kritter on Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:25 am 
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In this post I'm responding to Mors, since I promised a proper response to his original post. I'll try my best to respond to other people's concerns when I get a chance (meaning "not now because I need to go to bed soon").

Staff Issues
First of all, I'm going to take some of the responsibility here. Over the past year, I was in an accelerated grad school program (which means earning a master's degree in just one calendar year, which also means I was back to having way too many team projects). I was working two different jobs, too! I was pretty busy, and thinking about how to make MFGG more active was often the last thing on my mind, and often I didn't want to spend my free time trying to smooth over interpersonal conflict occurring in unofficial chat groups. This isn't a humblebrag about how amazing I was last year, though. While I was indeed busy, I still could've been more proactive about MFGG things. "Busy" is always a relative term, and you can always find a little more gas in the tank if you look for it. Quite a few other staff members were busy with "real life" stuff as well, and sometimes we didn't respond as quickly or communicate as much as we should've.

Over the past few months, we've taken several steps to give members a bigger voice in determining the long-term direction of our site, as well as an avenue for discussing any concerns about the day-to-day operations of the site. Not every decision can be made by popular vote, but we try our best to listen to members' ideas and use this feedback to make better decisions. If it ever feels like we're not listening, be patient and rest assured that we are doing our best to listen to our community. And if I'm ever sidetracked by Real Life stuff, you can always shoot me a PM or a Skype/Discord message and talk one-on-one.

I totally agree that mods should leave a message explaining why a topic was locked. Super Mario WTL mentioned how there should be some formal guidelines for staff members - and believe it or not, there actually are. Every once in a while we've deviated from the best practices for staff members, but I'd like to mention that there are some formal standards, and I'll make a few updates to them once the MyBB forums launch (since that's a great time to update all the stickies, including those in the staff forum).

In the case of Nite, we made him an admin so he could hand out badges. Nite's an awesome guy most of the time, but he can be a bit sensitive about certain things, which is why I didn't want him to do too much forum moderation aside from handing out badges and slaying spambots with his mighty crowbar. The good news is MyBB has much more granular permissions, so it'll be easier to give badge mod powers to people who aren't full admins.

The other staff members do a more detailed job of explaining how the selection process works for new staff members, so I won't say much about that. I'd be lying if we said we didn't have a tendency to pick people we know well, but I'd also like to note that being able to submit an application (which is the process we've used for most of the promotion decisions made in the past four years) helps us consider cool people who fly under the radar. For example, Gameboy was someone we promoted that I hadn't talked to very much.

I once made a list of 17 criteria we're looking for in staff members, but basically we're looking for people with good communication skills, an even temper, and the time and commitment to making MFGG a better place. And yes, we do have a bit of a preference for "nice" people - especially since staff members are often the first people that new members interact with (whether it's rejection notices for mainsite submissions, questions about the community, or requests to affiliate with their site).

Quality Control
Yeah, there have been some times when we've accepted iffy-quality stuff, but we've also been criticized for declining certain borderline submissions. It's a difficult tightrope to walk. I think the mainsite is due for a cleanup of low-quality or redundant submissions - it's been a while since we've done that.

DMCAs
Fear of takedowns may be a contributing factor to the recent decline in fangame output, although I don't think it's the biggest factor. MFGG's activity level has been declining for a while, a decline that began many years before a handful of high-profile fangames were taken down about a year ago.

I can't speak for everyone at Nintendo (or whatever law firm Nintendo hired), although I agree that most of the takedowns can be attributed to a handful of factors (monetization, or being a close remake of a game that Nintendo is still selling). When the new forums launch, I was planning to include an updated version of the Fangaming FAQ that addresses this and other common questions.

I've seen an increase in anti-fangame sentiment on Twitter, which is worrisome. There's not too much we can do about changing other people's attitudes, but social media still gives us an opportunity to tell our side of the story (that we're Nintendo fans making nonprofit fangames for fun, and that evidence suggests that we do best when Nintendo games are popular).

The Difficulty of Fangame Creation
I agree that there's been a trend toward really big, ambitious projects getting more attention than small-scale minigames. I still think there's an audience for simple minigames that are done well, though. For example, The Purple Coin was basically a minigame (albeit a minigame with a bunch of different levels), yet it dominated MFGG Awards not that long ago. Also, games can be wacky and popular at the same time - the Charisma Bros. games are offbeat games with relatively simple gameplay, but they've been well-received. I don't see any reason why we can't have minigames and big, ambitious projects coexisting.

As for engines, I think MFGG's attitude towards premade engines has shifted quite a bit in the past five years or so. Many of us have realized that premade engines aren't such a bad thing as long as you change some of the base elements (and use them to make good games). However, I suspect that the release of Mario Maker has quenched many MFGGers' thirst for using engines as a level editor. It's been ages since I've seen a Hello Engine game (in fact, I've seen more "games" made with his level editor than with the actual Hello Engine), and Gatete Engine games aren't as common as they used to be, either.

It would be cool if MFGG had a really good engine for teaching people how to do things in GM. Dazzle's engine is the best-annotated one I've seen, although his fell by the wayside for some reason (maybe because it's not on the mainsite or Wiki).

Shifting the Focus
As for specific features, it's not feasible to add anything new to the mainsite until lumaSMS launches. I'm not too keen on removing updates, since those are also a great way to post a summary of MFGG news. Broadening our scope beyond Mario fangames is an option, but I'd be more willing to consider it if there was some evidence that MFGG was interested in making fangames and resources for Zelda, Metroid, Fire Emblem, or whatnot. If you want MFGG to move in that direction, you can always start making them yourself - or invite people who are interested in such things. The forums already allow non-Mario fangames, and we don't see those much. As for ROM hacks, SMW Central has already established itself as the leading resource for Mario-related ROM hacking, and I'm not sure what we would gain from trying to beat them at ROM hacking (unless we're just trying to attract "SMWC dissidents" who are dissatisfied with the community for one reason or another). It would be cool to have more ROM hacks on the boards, though, and embracing ROM hacks on the mainsite may still be worth considering.

It would be cool to have more events and initiatives encouraging people to play fangames. Better promotion for Streams/LPs, more use of the online high scores system (which does indeed work!), a "Random Cool Game of the Day", and collections of fangames you've played/beaten could all facilitate that goal. Oh, and we could get better at posting GOTM awards. Q-Nova and I (mostly Q-Nova) have been working on that.

Scaring Away Fangame Developers
Yeah, it's a bummer when game development topics get ignored - and it hurts even more when promising games don't attract the attention they deserve. If you're a new member who's just made your first game, you'd probably appreciate knowing that people saw your game and took the time to play it - and maybe even offered to help you become better at what you love to do. I haven't found a way to do a thorough analysis of what causes new members to leave or stick around, but I believe that encouraging new members is one of the most important things to do to improve member retention.

Evil Yoshi Toes touched on an important point, in that yucky mainsite comments probably play a role in making the environment less inviting to new mainsite users. In the mainsite's current state, it's impossible to monitor the latest comments (except by going into the database and running your own queries, which is as cumbersome as it sounds), so we have to rely on the users to report bad comments. When lumaSMS launches, comment mods will have a much easier time monitoring topics and taking action as appropriate.

In the case of Nick, I understand it's important to support people who contribute to the fangaming scene, although it's also true that people were taking up torches and pitchforks against Yoshin - and Yoshin makes games, too. Being accused of stealing someone else's work is not a small criticism, and it's totally understandable if Yoshin wasn't happy with being accused of such.

I'm not a fan of giving special privileges to prolific contributors, but I do agree that better recognition of contributors would be nice. It might be cool to make better use of the other "Super Submitter" badges that we have but have never used.

Leaving?
If you want to take a break from MFGG, I totally understand. I hope you'll consider sticking around, though. You're making a very cool fangame, and you're always a contender for Best MFGG Username! We're working hard to make MFGG a better place, and we think the MyBB rollout will make life more enjoyable for everyone on MFGG.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:03 am 
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Super Mario WTL wrote:
The most important thing I think is staff accountability. We should have some standard staff guidelines that generally should be followed by the staff and lets the members know what they can expect from the staff. It would give us a solid rubric to argue when the staff crosses a line- and if the guidelines themselves aren't good we can argue about changing them instead of attacking staff members for just doing what they're supposed to do. I think having a feeling that the staff can be held accountable will bring a lot of confidence to people who have trust issues with them (and often times, people's trust issues with the staff are very well founded).

Absolutely. There was a period when staff members were openly making up rules on the spot, and received heavy critiscm for doing so. But all that has changed is they started making their moderation clandestine to avoid backlash entirely, which is even worse in some ways. The rules have not been the clear guide for moderators' judgement in quite some time, and it's clear that they are very out dated and ambiguous anyways. At the very least, a mass update on the rules is necessary to match the current principals of these admins, but, in my opinion, rulings would appear much more fair to the public if moderators directly referenced specific items in the rules to explain exactly why they are taking action (this is rather common on many other forums). For months, the process of mods has, or has at least appeared to be, "Any post which I don't like should be taken down", whereas it should be, "Any post which breaks the community guidelines should be taken down".

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:54 am 
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If the staff comes up with a plan to clean up the wiki, I'll be among the first to volunteer. I haven't edited the wiki very much, but nonetheless.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:29 am 
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Willsaber wrote:
Absolutely. There was a period when staff members were openly making up rules on the spot, and received heavy critiscm for doing so. But all that has changed is they started making their moderation clandestine to avoid backlash entirely, which is even worse in some ways. The rules have not been the clear guide for moderators' judgement in quite some time, and it's clear that they are very out dated and ambiguous anyways. At the very least, a mass update on the rules is necessary to match the current principals of these admins, but, in my opinion, rulings would appear much more fair to the public if moderators directly referenced specific items in the rules to explain exactly why they are taking action (this is rather common on many other forums). For months, the process of mods has, or has at least appeared to be, "Any post which I don't like should be taken down", whereas it should be, "Any post which breaks the community guidelines should be taken down".

Can I have a few citations for this?

I think the rules are fairly clear now. If they aren't, then that should be fixed.

Has action been taken in the last few months that doesn't line up with the rules, or seems unfair, or anything?

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:31 pm 
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He's probably referring to stuff like the Super Mario Odyssey spoiler debacle, he still blames mods for that even though it should have been common sense. He was mad mods edited his post even though he "technically broke no rules".

The rules are not going to cover absolutely everything and expecting them to is dumb, Willsaber.

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