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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:41 pm 
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So, after reading this topic more thoroughly, here's my two cents.

Issues with the Staff

I can't really say much on issues with the staff, considering I was gone for about half a year and completely missed drama like the Lockening incident. I agree that locking threads without any explanation is quite unbecoming, and it was perfectly understandable that people got mad over it.

Quality Control

As for Quality Control, it exists... but when glorified tutorial games like Yoshi's Clicker DEMO can get past the queue, it's pretty hard to believe that QC is doing what it's supposed to. Yoshi's Clicker DEMO is particularly condemning because it clearly violates the submission guidelines: simple demos should have at least two levels, while this blatant tutorial knockoff has only one. Furthermore, although it technically isn't an engine clone, it is so similar to a bare-bones Game Maker tutorial that it might as well be one anyway.

I flagged the game for those reasons and received absolutely no response. To be blunt, it feels like the only thing quality control is competent at is being incompetent.

Now there are indeed terrible things that get rejected, but the mainsite audience never sees them. Out of sight might as well be out of mind. What ultimately matters is what the mainsite users see, and if too many bad submissions slip through the cracks, people will assume that QC is failing to do its job. Can you really blame them for that assumption?

Absolutely not.

The Mainsite's Focus

The mainsite could definitely be improved when it comes to reaching fangame players. It also ought to be more strictly moderated. The mainsite commenters have a tendency to get rather toxic and argumentative at times.

Also, updates and search results ought to show thumbnails for all suitable submission types.

Rebranding

I can understand the appeal of turning MFGG into a brand new site with its own identity (that is, if I understand what Mit is saying by "rebranding"). I'm just not sure that something so drastic is necessary. In time, improving the site should address most, if not all, of those concerns.

That said,

Kritter wrote:
I disagree with pretty much everything you've said. Your idea is just to take MFGG, throw it to the side, make a new site and say "hey it's a clean slate, MFGG doesn't and never did exist, everything is fine now, come new members and be amazed at how new we are!" and that's totally pie in the sky to me.


Mit never said that MFGG would never have existed. At this point, you're just mocking him.

Quote:
One minute you say "everyone keeps referencing the past" and the next "nobody knows the past anyway" and it's all a bit stupid and pointless


Again, you're exaggerating for the purpose of ridiculing him. Oldbies wouldn't be referencing the past if they didn't know anything about it. The odd newer member also wouldn't be referencing the past if they didn't have access to that knowledge, either through older members or the wiki.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:58 pm 
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Quote:
As for Quality Control, it exists... but when glorified tutorial games like Yoshi's Clicker DEMO can get past the queue, it's pretty hard to believe that QC is doing what it's supposed to. Yoshi's Clicker DEMO is particularly condemning because it clearly violates the submission guidelines: simple demos should have at least two levels, while this blatant tutorial knockoff has only one. Furthermore, although it technically isn't an engine clone, it is so similar to a bare-bones Game Maker tutorial that it might as well be one anyway.

I flagged the game for those reasons and received absolutely no response. To be blunt, it feels like the only thing quality control is competent at is being incompetent.

Now there are indeed terrible things that get rejected, but the mainsite audience never sees them. Out of sight might as well be out of mind. What ultimately matters is what the mainsite users see, and if too many bad submissions slip through the cracks, people will assume that QC is failing to do its job. Can you really blame them for that assumption?

Absolutely not.

There's some kind of strange misconception about what QC is supposed to be. They are not GRAND WIZARDS that will only accept submissions that abide by each individual person's standards for quality. When it comes to games, the criteria really is:

-Is it off-topic?
-Does it run?
-Does it contain any viruses or phishing schemes?
-Does it break any rules such as having pornographic content?

If no to these questions, then yes it should go through. The reviews and comments feature are there to provide feedback and establish a rating to go by when selecting a game.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:27 pm 
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Cap'n Coconuts wrote:
Oldbies wouldn't be referencing the past if they didn't know anything about it. The odd newer member also wouldn't be referencing the past if they didn't have access to that knowledge, either through older members or the wiki.


So lets sweep it under the rug so nobody knows about it and pretend it doesn't exist? Seems like a "solid idea" that really has "massive benefits to the website" as a whole.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Kritter wrote:
Cap'n Coconuts wrote:
Oldbies wouldn't be referencing the past if they didn't know anything about it. The odd newer member also wouldn't be referencing the past if they didn't have access to that knowledge, either through older members or the wiki.


So lets sweep it under the rug so nobody knows about it and pretend it doesn't exist? Seems like a "solid idea" that really has "massive benefits to the website" as a whole.

How will leaving it help the website?

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:08 pm 
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Not more than a few posts ago I mentioned having to look something up on the wiki to figure out what people were talking about. Plus it's a good resource for information about the people, history and fangames of this website. In some instances it's a good read, and pretty much a harmless resource that has absolutely no bearing on whether this site improves or not. Personally I don't see where this all came from as it's probably the least important thing that needs improving on this website.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:47 pm 
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Cap'n Coconuts wrote:
Also, updates and search results ought to show thumbnails for all suitable submission types.

This needs to be brought to the staff's attention in light of LumaSMS development. User-friendly GUI design definitely needs to be at the very top of that project's focal points.

Kritter wrote:
In some instances it's a good read, and pretty much a harmless resource that has absolutely no bearing on whether this site improves or not. Personally I don't see where this all came from as it's probably the least important thing that needs improving on this website.

No one's saying that having a wiki as a whole is this bad influence on the entirety of MFGG. However, the MFGG Wiki as it is currently poses a lot of problems to the site's presentation, preservation, and perhaps most controversially: writing from varying perspectives. We'll call this the PPP of the wiki. Yes I'm aware I'm not funny

In all seriousness, do you want to know why the MFGG Wiki has a rocky reputation as being this vanity showcase of glorified autobiographies? Because that's exactly what it is. When the wiki was first created, there were very few standards for unbiased article creation and maintenance - which is a flaw that carries over into the present day. There have been efforts even now to curb these articles which have wobbly perspectives woven through them, but even if we discount articles made prior to, say, 2010 - you still have people doing it to this day.

Unprofessional writing is a crutch to a wiki, even one as "for fun" and "community driven" as MFGG's own. It's vastly jarring to go from reading "Super Mario's Bullet Hell Banana Trail is an upcoming fangame being created by the wonder team of Dustinvgmaster, Miles, and Dr. Wario slated for release in early 2019" to something like "Wild Woody is a really slick ass member who joined in the year of our lord 2013 and he only posts sometimes because honestly nobody LIKES this dude, by his own real admission even." Oh, but you might say something like "oh please, that's an exaggeration, none of the articles are so carelessly written in that way" and... you're right. That is an exaggeration. You wanna know what isn't, though?

Quote:
He still frequents the board and offers advice or backseat moderation wherever he can! This a joke, for real.

This is from your own wiki article. I combed through the history to check who had some sort of weird issue with you, guess who wrote that? You did. About a year ago, roughly. Now, to clarify: I don't have any issue with a sense of humour at all. Self-deprecation is apparently my bread and butter, in fact! (According to some people, anyways) But you can't have this be an official part of the site and have effectively no real standard for what is and isn't appropriate writing. Either split the wiki off as it is currently and keep it as an unofficial repository of MFGG Historical Significance to be maintained elsewhere while also possibly starting anew with a fresh MFGG Wiki focused on fangame documentation and game making documentation, or quit pretending that the wiki as it presently exists is anything but a glorified social media log for MFGG's greatest as well as MFGG's weirdest moments.

Finally, if any of you counter with "oh what's the harm in some silly writing and jokes laid throughout. Who cares, you're getting too high strung over some text on a screen". You know, it isn't that important at the end of the day, you're right. But, allow me to give you some perspective: biased writing results in biased people. While we're at it, this is a Super Mario fangame website - none of this really matters compared to other things going on in the world. So let's take what we have and try to uphold some standard of information preservation. If you want to improve the site for the better, I think it's only fair that that means improving every part of the website. I'd really hate to see the wiki become an ignored product of a decade of bragging, quarrels, and no real goal.

 
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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:20 pm 
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If the wiki is making us biased I guess that's a good thing, I'd be more worried if we didn't have biases.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:30 pm 
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Pedigree wrote:
There's some kind of strange misconception about what QC is supposed to be. They are not GRAND WIZARDS that will only accept submissions that abide by each individual person's standards for quality.

You misunderstand me. My chief concern is that submissions like Yoshi's Clicker DEMO do not abide by the Submission Rules as they are written. Those aren't my "individual standards," those are the standards on the site itself.

Quote:
When it comes to games, the criteria really is:

-Is it off-topic?
-Does it run?
-Does it contain any viruses or phishing schemes?
-Does it break any rules such as having pornographic content?

Do the Submission Rules linked to on the mainsite navigation count? Because, in this case, it feels like they don't.

Kritter wrote:
So lets sweep it under the rug so nobody knows about it and pretend it doesn't exist? Seems like a "solid idea" that really has "massive benefits to the website" as a whole.

I imagine that having people let go of old grudges and preventing newer members from judging for past transgressions would have benefits to the website, yes.

Super Mario WTL wrote:
If the wiki is making us biased I guess that's a good thing, I'd be more worried if we didn't have biases.

Um... I kind of doubt that.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:14 am 
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Vimimin wrote:
But you can't have this be an official part of the site and have effectively no real standard for what is and isn't appropriate writing.


Why? You rambled a bit but never really gave a reason.

Vimimin wrote:
Finally, if any of you counter with "oh what's the harm in some silly writing and jokes laid throughout. Who cares, you're getting too high strung over some text on a screen". You know, it isn't that important at the end of the day, you're right. But, allow me to give you some perspective: biased writing results in biased people. While we're at it, this is a Super Mario fangame website - none of this really matters compared to other things going on in the world. So let's take what we have and try to uphold some standard of information preservation. If you want to improve the site for the better, I think it's only fair that that means improving every part of the website. I'd really hate to see the wiki become an ignored product of a decade of bragging, quarrels, and no real goal.


I dunno, all I'm getting is "someone could be biased about what's written about X member on the wiki". Soo.... remove the entry? Just as I was freely able to edit my own entry, surely other people can edit their own entries too, or perhaps even remove mentions to themselves? Still not seeing it as an issue, feels more like sour grapes from someone making a bigger deal out of it. Feels like there's more to this story than a simple mention on the forum. People keep talking about grudges and whatnot but I'm not seeing any of that... here. Show me when it's become an issue on the forums.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:15 am 
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Kritter wrote:
Vimimin wrote:
But you can't have this be an official part of the site and have effectively no real standard for what is and isn't appropriate writing.


Why? You rambled a bit but never really gave a reason.

If you read through my rambling (which you don't seem to bother to do in this thread with anybody), you'd find multiple reasons and explanations for the conclusion I reached.

I hope you don't mind if I break down the paragraph after that to reply. You kinda rambled yourself here:

Kritter wrote:
I dunno, all I'm getting is "someone could be biased about what's written about X member on the wiki".

My point wasn't strictly bias, it was that the articles in general are poorly written and usually written without things such as citation or sourcing or anything at all. There are no ways of backing up any of this information without some serious digging through the IPB archive - and for any info that predates the IPB forums, there's no real way to at all.

Kritter wrote:
Soo.... remove the entry? Just as I was freely able to edit my own entry, surely other people can edit their own entries too, or perhaps even remove mentions to themselves?

I don't think you get the bigger issue. We've been trying to do that for years, now. Fact is, the wiki has too many articles and a large chunk of them are user articles. The thing is, we don't really have any standards for what should be on a user's page or not. I skimmed through the wiki multiple times over the last couple of years, and generally with user pages you have either... two sentence long ones (stub articles, basically), really lengthy ones riddled with pointless anecdotes (unnecessary but mostly just harmless fluff), and finally the really lengthy ones that have random sentences (sometimes paragraphs) of complete tonal shifts. You're basically taking an in-joke and slapping it somewhere where it really isn't appropriate.

Kritter wrote:
Still not seeing it as an issue, feels more like sour grapes from someone making a bigger deal out of it. Feels like there's more to this story than a simple mention on the forum.

If you wish to view it that way, I nor anyone else here can stop you. That's your call, Kritter. I've only really felt like the wiki discredited me once, and that was resolved fairly quickly. I'm just pointing out something I've seemed to notice for a long time, something that predates briefly being a SysOp, even. Black Squirrel was heavily critical of it, for instance - although I did not take his warnings to heart and I actually got into a bit of a tuffy with him at the time, but I see now that he was correct and I want to help remedy that! The wiki's days as an amateurish effort to preserve incidental forum happenings should not have overtaken its intended purpose of archiving fangame information and other related material. I'm not saying that community stuff shouldn't be preserved somehow. I'm just asking why isn't there a standard for the writing? For the user articles? Most of the staff agrees with me on this, so I don't think it's too much to ask for/about.

Kritter wrote:
People keep talking about grudges and whatnot but I'm not seeing any of that... here. Show me when it's become an issue on the forums.

It's happening all around you. People are holding and forming grudges all the time because of a variety of reasons, not just the wiki. We're kind of sitting on this 10+ year old baggage, the lot of us. I'm not 100% saying a fresh start will solve all of our problems, but it can prevent old issues/generalizations from creeping out about MFGG and MFGGers - think about it, a clean slate means that you have less people who are drawn to pointing fingers about past complications, past "forum incidents", past troublesome members who are trying to atone for something they did in the past. People can get a new start, and I don't necessarily see what's wrong with that at all. I think everybody could benefit from it, even people who haven't really... done anything. Newbies wouldn't be scared or confused by the articles detailing the various times the forums were attacked in the 2000s, or the whole "lockening" thing or... you know.

Look: I'm not saying don't forget the past. But don't hold onto it either. We've all done some stupid, immature... frankly completely moronic things on this site. I'm never quite going to live down certain things or (unfortunate as it may be) ever repair my standing to certain members here... but you can never get a chance to redeem yourself unless people stop holding things against you. The wiki isn't that big of a stronghold on MFGG's overall problems. I won't pretend like it is, either. But I think if given the chance, MFGG as a whole shouldn't have anything held against it by the community at large.

Yeah, I know. I rambled again. Thread has "rambling" in the title, what'd you expect?

 
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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:20 am 
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I personally think the issue with the wiki is more about how we present ourselves professionally. Obviously the whole concept of fan games is that it's a for-fun thing, but seeing as we're updating everything else to look more user friendly and professional, I think removing all that pointless fluff from our wiki would help us achieve the image we want to achieve. Obviously going through every single article on the wiki, most of which are garbage, and removing the bad ones would be impractical and take forever, so I think starting over with the wiki and focusing it on what the site is meant for, fan games, would be ideal. Having our wiki focus more on forum drama than it does fan games is silly and strays far away from the subject of our website and makes us look like immature children who hold grudges over petty internet arguments.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:30 am 
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Vimimin wrote:
Kritter wrote:
People keep talking about grudges and whatnot but I'm not seeing any of that... here. Show me when it's become an issue on the forums.

It's happening all around you. People are holding and forming grudges all the time because of a variety of reasons, not just the wiki. We're kind of sitting on this 10+ year old baggage, the lot of us. I'm not 100% saying a fresh start will solve all of our problems, but it can prevent old issues/generalizations from creeping out about MFGG and MFGGers - think about it, a clean slate means that you have less people who are drawn to pointing fingers about past complications, past "forum incidents", past troublesome members who are trying to atone for something they did in the past. People can get a new start, and I don't necessarily see what's wrong with that at all. I think everybody could benefit from it, even people who haven't really... done anything. Newbies wouldn't be scared or confused by the articles detailing the various times the forums were attacked in the 2000s, or the whole "lockening" thing or... you know.

Look: I'm not saying don't forget the past. But don't hold onto it either. We've all done some stupid, immature... frankly completely moronic things on this site. I'm never quite going to live down certain things or (unfortunate as it may be) ever repair my standing to certain members here... but you can never get a chance to redeem yourself unless people stop holding things against you. The wiki isn't that big of a stronghold on MFGG's overall problems. I won't pretend like it is, either. But I think if given the chance, MFGG as a whole shouldn't have anything held against it by the community at large.

Yeah, I know. I rambled again. Thread has "rambling" in the title, what'd you expect?


Scrubbing history won't change any of that though. Only way that would change is if you dropped your username, changed your email and IP, lost your friends and started posting under a brand new guise. If someone has a "grudge" against you, likely deleting your wiki and changing the website into "Fresh New Games Galaxy" isn't going to change that is it? I'll still be Kritter whether I have a wiki article or not, and you'd likely still feel the same way about me whether you read my history on the wiki or not. Matter of fact, most people form their opinion of me from what I post here I'd imagine, and the rest would be heresay through chats and other things I'd wager. A reputation spreads regardless of whether it's been written down or not.

Me, I like reading about history of websites and the little things like wars with SFGHQ in the yesteryear, it shows we had some colourful stuff happen for sure but it's history that you can't change by pretending it doesn't exist and we've been here forever despite it. My guess is you only want to erase the "bad" things but keep things like fun PPP happenings and stuff like that but you shouldn't be able to pick and choose.

As for user articles, I say leave it up to the users. If they want to post stuff about themselves then let them have at it, if they want their history removed then that's their prerogative.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:12 am 
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Kritter wrote:
Scrubbing history won't change any of that though. Only way that would change is if you dropped your username, changed your email and IP, lost your friends and started posting under a brand new guise. If someone has a "grudge" against you, likely deleting your wiki and changing the website into "Fresh New Games Galaxy" isn't going to change that is it? I'll still be Kritter whether I have a wiki article or not, and you'd likely still feel the same way about me whether you read my history on the wiki or not. Matter of fact, most people form their opinion of me from what I post here I'd imagine, and the rest would be heresay through chats and other things I'd wager. A reputation spreads regardless of whether it's been written down or not.

Me, I like reading about history of websites and the little things like wars with SFGHQ in the yesteryear, it shows we had some colourful stuff happen for sure but it's history that you can't change by pretending it doesn't exist and we've been here forever despite it. My guess is you only want to erase the "bad" things but keep things like fun PPP happenings and stuff like that but you shouldn't be able to pick and choose.

As for user articles, I say leave it up to the users. If they want to post stuff about themselves then let them have at it, if they want their history removed then that's their prerogative.

I never said scrubbing history would do any of that. Honestly, my points about the wiki and my points about this site's, as you put it, "colourful" stuff in its past were really more two separate points that happened to cross with each other in this thread. I apologize for that, since that's my own fault for wording everything in one glob and not doing much to spread everything out.

My main point about the wiki is worded more concisely by Evil Yoshi Toes in his post above yours - it's mainly about focus and professionalism. I just also happen to think the drama and unrelated forum stuff crosses into the rebranding argument. At this point in time I'm probably on the fence about a rebrand; neither for nor against it, really. But I do think putting the wiki as it is now to the side and starting fresh would do all kinds of wonders for the site. I would be singing a different tune if the content on the wiki was geared towards the fangames right from the start, but it's obvious to anyone by now that it isn't (hence, starting over from scratch would be the easier solution).

Also, no - picking and choosing isn't in my argument at all. I'd prefer to get rid of the lighthearted fad fluff just as much as the incoherent drama, it's all the same to me.

Maybe the way user articles are presented needs to be overhauled in general. Making them mini-biographies probably isn't ultra useful to your average browser of MFGG, so perhaps putting more focus on their fangame achievements instead? You could still have incidental nods to their history on the site, maybe just downplay it.

 
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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:40 am 
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I'm not against focusing the wiki more on fangaming, but I'm against the removal of history. I'd be all in favour of a restructuring of the wiki to focus on the fangaming, but to me the history is important and should be left alone. To me it feels like people are looking at MFGG through "businessman" eyes, instead of looking at MFGG like a community or family. It needs to be both of those things in my opinion. The drama is family drama, the users are family members and fads and events are historical references to a family having fun together, that's what this place should be. You strip away the history and the human element and MFGG just becomes a business with no heart and there's not a great future in that if you ask me. History is there to learn from, not to be ashamed of.

This whole topic feels like a board meeting, talking about restructuring, refocusing, rebranding. :tired:

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:11 pm 
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This thread has been fairly argumentative. From my perspective, a disproportionate amount of the negativity seems to be coming from Kritter's posts.

Can we all try a little harder to further the discussion and come up with compromises and solutions, rather than ridiculing each other's arguments?

Restructuring, rebranding, refocusing, etc. is all really important stuff to consider. Also, there is a lot of negativity on the wiki. It can turn people off from the site if they realize that mistakes they make just on some Mario forum could end up being permanently recorded.

I like the idea of our history being recorded, but I can't deny how negative it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:54 pm 
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Having a different point of view doesn't automatically make me "negative", from my perspective I'm looking at our history in a more positive light than simply something to cast aside because we're scared of turning away members, and I still think this is mountain out of molehill material, there are far greater things to be considering than axing the wiki I'd imagine, that's not really going to suddenly entice new members to join in droves.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:55 pm 
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I would love to have a wiki where we do not meticulously catalog every terrible argument we've had for everyone to see.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:57 pm 
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1. Nobody is saying erase the history. AFAIK everyone here is talking about archiving the wiki as is and starting fresh.
  • 1a. Starting fresh means it's easier to shift focus on the wiki to Mario fangaming articles and more.
  • 1b. There are so many pages on the wiki that need to be updated or completely reworked, as well as others that need to be removed and few members who actually want to do it. Starting fresh means we have a shot at keeping the wiki better maintained and updated rather than staring at a MASSIVE behemoth of a To Do list.
  • 1c. Starting fresh also means we can drop cataloging the drama entirely while you can keep whatever has already been archived if you would like access to that.

2. While we're not JUST scared of turning away new members as you suggest, it is a genuine concern. More members leave MFGG than join it and that is a fact. An obsession with maintaining a thorough guide on all the drama does not help, though you're right that it's not the only issue (and no one was saying it was).
  • 2a. You act like new members are trivial and are not a vital addition that will help keep the community running, why is that?
  • 2b. The fact that you had to look up The Lockening is not an argument in favor of keeping the drama in the wiki, it is an argument in favor of removing it. Since you did not know what it was about and would not know if it wasn't an article on the wiki, you would not have had any reason to get involved in such a counterproductive discussion. Everything that can be said about the situation has already been said and it REALLY needs to be dropped.

    Staff has changed significantly since, with a couple even stepping down out of the role so continuing to harp on the staff for their mistakes during the situation isn't doing much but stirring tension needlessly.

3. There's a difference between having a different point of view and dismissing or ridiculing everyone who doesn't agree with you. In fact, you seem to have a habit of twisting people's words to make them look worse by comparison instead of actually staying on point. This behavior constantly overtakes the thread and switches it to Kritter vs. MFGG regardless of the original subject of the thread.

4. This thread isn't just about the Wiki, if you'd like to discuss the Wiki in detail it's time to make a separate thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:19 pm 
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Kritter wrote:
Having a different point of view doesn't automatically make me "negative"

Indeed it doesn't. There's been a wide array of opinions in the thread in fact, and a lot of it has been fairly constructive.

Kritter wrote:
from my perspective I'm looking at our history in a more positive light than simply something to cast aside because we're scared of turning away members

Yes, you're looking at the wiki more positively than some, but you're also casting the opinions of others in an unnecessarily negative light. It's not conducive to a good conversation.

Kritter wrote:
I still think this is mountain out of molehill material, there are far greater things to be considering than axing the wiki I'd imagine, that's not really going to suddenly entice new members to join in droves.

I think we're maybe taking it a bit too seriously, I don't think the existence of the wiki is a primary problem exactly, but that doesn't change the negativity you've helped add to the thread. There are nicer ways to put it.

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 Post subject: Re: Mors Rambling About MFGG
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:43 pm 
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Pedigree wrote:
You act like new members are trivial and are not a vital addition that will help keep the community running, why is that?


Pretty sure I've never said or even alluded to that, and it couldn't be further from the truth.

Quote:
The fact that you had to look up The Lockening is not an argument in favor of keeping the drama in the wiki, it is an argument in favor of removing it. Since you did not know what it was about and would not know if it wasn't an article on the wiki, you would not have had any reason to get involved in such a counterproductive discussion. Everything that can be said about the situation has already been said and it REALLY needs to be dropped.


And yet even if it wasn't in the wiki people would be bringing it up anyway, as evidenced in this thread, which means the drama and grudges follows you whether it's in the wiki or not. The wiki just gives the drama some context.

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