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 Post subject: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:08 pm 
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I have never agreed with the idea that if something like a sprite or pixel art has no use as a resource that it does not have any value. I feel like the system has always scared off potential contributors by rejecting projects outright instead of letting the community help them with comments and criticism so that they can improve and grow.

I don't agree with rejecting submissions unless:

1. They are inappropriate or break other rules.
2. They are stolen or duplicate submissions.
3. They are software so buggy that they are unplayable.
4. They contain viruses.
5. They are phishing for information.
6. They are not relevant to the focus.
7. They have jpeg or GIF artifacts on graphic submissions or are graphics with obscuring watermarks.

I'd love to see a focus on encouraging creativity and new content. Expand sprites to cover pixel art and other kinds of art as long as it's relevant.

MFGG as a community showcase accepting of all skill levels and encouraging growth is a good solution for everyone all around I feel.

I know it will be hard at first, but even the lowest quality submission with the right constructive criticism can be a stepping stone to something great over time.

Basically what I'm saying is that we should be encouraging new spriters instead of "if it's not useful we don't want it".


PS: Usable resource as a standard doesn't make much sense given that very little of such submissions are actually used as a resource.


Last edited by Pedigree on Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:30 pm 
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I'm going to be frank here by saying that ditching ripped assets and letting the VG Resource handle it is a bad idea. I want this site to receive more traffic through whatever means are reasonable, so axing a solid part of this site's content would hurt it quite a bit. Besides, even if it works out in the end and encourages creativity like you mentioned, I highly doubt that there are any other active sprite archive sites around anymore. The one you mentioned, though, is honestly a rather dodgy one that I would prefer that it no longer receives attention. While I won't go into details why the VG Resource is not exactly that great out of fear of landing in hot water, all I will mention is that the community is rather unsavory. As such, I think we should think this over before taking out content that has made up a sizable portion of this site's submissions for years.


Last edited by E-Man on Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:35 pm 
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Have to say I disagree with all your points, but there you go.

MFGG is about making fangames and we provide the resources to do just that. Ditching those resources goes against the very idea of the website, and accepting resources that probably won't be used in favour of that is pointless.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:38 pm 
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I really don't want to derail the whole thread with a ripped graphics debate so I'll just elaborate on something else: Perhaps a featured section for staff and community's favorite picks. That way, you still have quality submissions featured in some capacity. :)

Kritter: Every one of them? Okay, thanks for your ****post. :)

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:43 pm 
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Pedigree wrote:
I really don't want to derail the whole thread with a ripped graphics debate so I'll just elaborate on something else: Perhaps a featured section for staff and community's favorite picks. That way, you still have quality submissions featured in some capacity. :)

Kritter: Every one of them? Okay, thanks for your ****post. :)


I don't agree with you so it's a ****post? You go and play that victim.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:48 pm 
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I didn't say that was why.

However, if you seriously expect me to believe that you don't agree we should encourage new spriters and creativity at the very least and aren't just saying no because you have a grudge, then I don't know what you expect me to think about such a post.

If this is the way you would like to behave, please see your way out of the topic and let us continue to have a rational discussion about MFGG.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:52 pm 
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I don't agree we should be doing that on the WEBSITE, the forum is where that belongs.

If the website introduces tutorials and stuff like that then I'm all for it, but right now the website is for quality submissions that are useful.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:56 pm 
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Kritter wrote:
I don't agree we should be doing that on the WEBSITE, the forum is where that belongs.

If the website introduces tutorials and stuff like that then I'm all for it, but right now the website is for quality submissions that are useful.

You can't be so ignorant as to pretend that only quality submissions that are useful currently make it to the website. You're also smart enough to know that "quality" and "useful" mean different things to different people.

Please do explain why the main site and forums should be considered separate entities as far as content is concerned when the current plan is to merge them into one platform.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:05 pm 
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Pedigree wrote:
Kritter wrote:
I don't agree we should be doing that on the WEBSITE, the forum is where that belongs.

If the website introduces tutorials and stuff like that then I'm all for it, but right now the website is for quality submissions that are useful.

You can't be so ignorant as to pretend that only quality submissions that are useful currently make it to the website. You're also smart enough to know that "quality" and "useful" mean different things to different people.

Please do explain why the main site and forums should be considered separate entities as far as content is concerned when the current plan is to merge them into one platform.


Because they're not merged yet? And there's no ETA on that happening? And they ARE separate entities?

You go to the website to get resources to make games, you go to the forums to be a part of the community and post WIP stuff or learn to sprite etc. I don't think it's necessary to accept every little thing submitted. When I'm searching for sprites, I don't want to have to wade through "SMB styled sprites with elmo.jpg" or "garbage looking Mario.png" to get to what I want.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:52 pm 
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stepping in to give what i think we should do for a resource reorganization.

there's two major components to what i had in mind. the first one is adding additional community feedback to submissions that don't meet the "standard" MFGG would set for itself. basically, all submissions should go through some designated queue area that is visible to users, allowing them to provide thoughtful feedback before being sent directly to the main queue. things accepted in the main queue would be placed in the "database" where all accepted submissions go, and if declined they would likely return to the community area for further feedback and direction. whether this community area is the forums or not i haven't decided, but either way it'd be good for both the community to help eachother work to make good content for the site, as well as understand what MFGG is/isn't looking for in regards to fanmade content.

the other part of this is about rips. i think we should try to team up in some capacity with tSR to share mario game databases, so that way we can look to get the best rips we could possibly achieve for both websites. the rips themselves would no longer require credit, because nintendo made them, not the ripper. furthermore, the now clean databases can be used for future sprite reference and tutorials for budding spriters to understand how certain sprite styles "work" and things nintendo does right and wrong in their sprites. this could also be applicable to other resources like music, sounds, etc

i'm assuming that we'll be going forward with adding databases for stuff like romhacks, fan music, and fan art, as discussed in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:55 pm 
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>a public member queue
I don't like that idea. That is subject to abuse and popularity nonsense.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:55 pm 
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Mit wrote:
all submissions should go through some designated queue area that is visible to users, allowing them to provide thoughtful feedback before being sent directly to the main queue. things accepted in the main queue would be placed in the "database" where all accepted submissions go, and if declined they would likely return to the community area for further feedback and direction.


I really like this idea but over time it could lead to clutter. Perhaps declined submissions could be removed after a set period of no activity from the person who submitted it, as in no revisions submitted.


Last edited by Kritter on Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Pedigree wrote:
>a public member queue
I don't like that idea. That is subject to abuse and popularity nonsense.

based on experiences here it seems like that usually doesn't happen. the community side of things really wouldn't have a say in what things get accepted anyway, just making sure things are neat and tidy before they go off to be added to the major database.

Kritter wrote:
Perhaps declined submissions could be removed after a set period of no activity from the person who submitted it, as in no revisions submitted.

this is a good idea, i also thought that accepted submissions would be moved and archived so people have examples of what's passed through.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:58 pm 
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An observation:

It seems that often when there is a new suggestion or discussion regarding the forum, Kritter drops by to respond in a rather negative/antagonistic way. Often giving short answers with little, to no backup thought. In this specific instance, he simply states that he disagrees with all of pedigree's points in a single statement, then goes on to say that ditching resources would not be in the focus of MFGG which I don't understand where this is coming from as nobody said that we were removing any resources, just making things more lax?

Anyway, this usually acts as the trigger and we usually get some silly back and forth between Kritter and whoever is on board with this new idea that doesn't really get anyone anywhere until Kritter finally decides to elaborate on his initial point.

Instead of these blanketing statements, you should just try to elaborate from the get go why you don't agree with the suggestion and try to be more open to the possibility of change. You come off as a cranky old man who hates things being different in every one of these topics it seems. Lighten up a bit, friend.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Mit wrote:
this is a good idea, i also thought that accepted submissions would be moved and archived so people have examples of what's passed through.


Personally I don't see the need for moving it to a main queue. If a sprite is good enough to be submitted outright, it just gets bumped from "queued" to "hosted" when a QC staff member accepts it and automatically moved to its intended section on the website. The comments from the queued sprite would just carry over. If that makes sense.

Syaxamaphone wrote:
An observation:then goes on to say that ditching resources would not be in the focus of MFGG which I don't understand where this is coming from as nobody said that we were removing any resources, just making things more lax?


Pedigree's original (now edited) post mentioned letting go of ripped material and letting TSR handle that, while we host only original content. ALL original content, good or not so good.

Me, i'm open to the possibility of any changes but if I disagree with them then I'll tell you about it, if I agree then I'll support it with my own ideas as I've done in plenty of topics in the suggestions forum.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:11 pm 
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I'm in favor of Pedigree's suggestion. We need to have a system that is less subject to the opinions of a small group of QC staffers. If you show them art that isn't that great, you will likely get a different opinion from each of them. We should focus on accepting submissions of any quality as long as they follow the rules that have been outlined.

In the Discord, another idea on top of this was suggested. Once submissions are on the mainsite, users should be able to send a report to the QC staff. If a submission gets enough reports, it can be taken off the site. Over time, we can collect these reports so we can develop a baseline for quality of what can go up on the site. Eventually, we might open up a public voting system where voters can use this officially-developed quality baseline.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:20 pm 
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yea, now that i've had time to think about it more i'm leaning more towards a dA like system where at most better things get scored up. maybe a favorites feature could be used for organizational purposes.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:35 pm 
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Also tbh I wouldn't trust any of MFGG's rips. I go straight to tSR but I don't think we should remove rips outright. I think its fine to keep archiving and accepting them just in case something happens to tSR or another archive at some point. This point seemed to have been removed I guess but I thought I'd give my two cents anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:22 am 
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Mit wrote:
the other part of this is about rips. i think we should try to team up in some capacity with tSR to share mario game databases, so that way we can look to get the best rips we could possibly achieve for both websites. the rips themselves would no longer require credit, because nintendo made them, not the ripper. furthermore, the now clean databases can be used for future sprite reference and tutorials for budding spriters to understand how certain sprite styles "work" and things nintendo does right and wrong in their sprites. this could also be applicable to other resources like music, sounds, etc

Right, if we're going to team up with the VG Resource to any extent, then what I'd recommend is some sort of "merger." While I'm not saying that MFGG should become a subdivision of the VG Resource, what I am insisting is that each site should adapt each other's more desirable traits. From the VG Resource we'll receive further insight on improving our work and more talented spriters, while we provide our insight on achieving a more positive community. Forgive me for harping on this whole situation, but at least two other people on this site could agree that the VG Resource is an unforgiving community for the wrong reasons. While I'm not against the idea of the VG Resource on paper, it's just that I resent the fact that one of the top pixel art communities twisted the meaning behind "don't care about what other people think." It even went as far as ostracizing others who don't share their exact political opinions, which is a problem that even DK Vine has low tolerance regarding it.

 
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 Post subject: Re: What I think Quality Control should be about.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:06 am 
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Well, I disagree heavily about changing quality control to be more relaxed about what's accepted. Indeed, I find the reason MFGG is more useful than something like Open Game Art is because quality control exists here. Because when you download some sprites or a tileset, you know you can actually make a level or game with it (whereas on a lot of other sites, it could be incredibly disorganised or lacking in useful tiles or animation frames).

Contrast this (very usable):

https://mfgg.net/index.php?act=resdb&pa ... 1&id=33499

To this (way too limited):

https://opengameart.org/content/country ... form-tiles

Honestly, I wish those sites took some more inspiration from MFGG here.

I also like the ripped content this site has. Honestly, it has a lot of stuff Spriter's Resource hasn't got to yet, and I'm quite glad it does. Of course, I try and submit any graphics I rip to both this site and TSR, but many people don't.

However, a more public quality control reporting system is something I can agree with. I also feel something like SMW Central's removed submission logs could be useful as well, with a summary of reasons a submission was reported being listed for each removed resource. Maybe with a system to 'revouch' for any content that got removed by mistake.

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