[quote="Willsaber"][quote="CouchTomato"]So a guy walks into a bar... and asks how everyone can work together to be abstain from alcohol.[/quote] I think a more appropriate comparison would be walking into a bar and asking everybody how they can abolish restrictive alcohol-related legislation.[/quote] Not really... I think you're missing the heart of his argument here.

[quote="CouchTomato"]Not really... I think you're missing the heart of his argument here.[/quote] P-Star isn't asking us to stop making fangames, he's asking us to get Nintendo to let us continue making fangames.

[quote="P-Star7"]So, it seems to say that Nintendo will not grant permission, unless it is something that would not be required to ask permission of them in the first place. Since the closest thing I can find to legal counsel is "VideoGameLawyer"'s posts on Reddit who says that they are not legal, it seems that Nintendo fangames are not legal. How should we as a community learn and move on from this? Should we replace Mario fangames with original assets, as I am trying to do with Hello Tux Engine?[/quote] Unless I'm mistaken, which certainly isn't unlikely for someone as stupid as me, it appears as if that's his current viewpoint.

[quote="Pufflehugs"]Unless I'm mistaken, which certainly isn't unlikely for someone as stupid as me, it appears as if that's his current viewpoint.[/quote] The more I look at his posts in the thread, the more I believe I was mistaken and CouchTomato was right.

I'd like for people to make fangames, but I don't think the best solution until they are "legitimized" by not being illegal is to go "**** Nintendo" and do it anyways, because that will mean that people do not take Nintendo's opinion seriously, so they will never take fan works seriously. And a fangame is supposed to mean and show that you are a fan of the original work, so it doesn't make sense to ignore what Nintendo says in this case if you don't agree with them - Mario didn't used to be a property that was so much more heroic than it was today until Nintendo "got greedy", if you want to say "Respect the property, not the company". There were so many bad Mario ports being pumped out from day 1, such as Atari 2600 Donkey Kong, Punchball Mario Bros., and SMB Special. These ports show that Nintendo as a company always considered Mario's brand more important than the actual games, even though the specific people working on the mainline Mario games did put their heart into it. And even though SEGA did all of this, at least they do allow fangames at the end of the day. And I'll say again, I really don't understand how it is "fun" to make a fangame knowing that Nintendo probably does not want you to be doing it in the first place. Sure, I understand that the actual process and designing is fun, but to me that is a pretty big elephant in the room to ignore. I know my opinion is different from a lot of people's, but if Nintendo doesn't consider Mario fangames to bolster the brand, then making Mario fangames won't bolster the fandom. Maybe I am being too pie-in-the-sky about Nintendo legitimizing fangames (not saying that I don't want it to happen), but at least it allows us to look at the obvious disconnect in ideologies and goals between MFGG and Nintendo. That is why onpon4 was right about me using Tux in a proprietary engine; even though I actually did like Tux from my memories of SuperTux, Tux's actual purpose is to serve as the mascot of fully open-source software. It's just like how I don't feel good about making a Mario fangame if Nintendo doesn't appreciate it instead of claiming that Mario is to be used for their intents only, and that even though the fangames are good, they are forced to lack a greater meaning. I suppose what I am saying is that when someone says "I don't care what Nintendo thinks, I just want to make a Mario game!", I am thinking "If you don't like Nintendo's stance on fangames, then why would you want to make one for them?". SEGA praises fangames and absorbs them like a plant absorbs water, and Nintendo does not, and nothing happens like when someone waters a rock. I honestly do want to make a Mario game someday, and not a Sonic game, but I am just saying why that would not be a good idea legally, logically, and a bit morally, until Nintendo becomes more fan-friendly, and asking everyone to ask themselves if this idea resonates with them. I hope I'm making sense, and sorry for the wall of text. P.S. I know it sounds weird, but look around you. None of the things that are good about MFGG need Mario to still be good. The friendly community, the people who help each other with coding, spriting, and even composing, and the remix culture. I am just trying to say that we can still be a good community even without having to like Nintendo unless they change their tune, and we can be our own heroes instead of being heroes for a company that does not appreciate us.

Also, I realized that I never probably said this in concise words, but here you go: 1. I DON'T want fangames to stop... 2. But I think that we need to vote with our forks on Nintendo's treatment of fangames. I'm sorry to everyone who I am opposing by saying this. I have loved MFGG for a long time. But I just think that we need to do something to upset the status quo (that benefits neither us nor Nintendo), even if it is a drastic measure, it will ultimately be better for us as a community of developers.

EYE WATERING BIG WALL OF BLAH People still gonna make Mario fangames, the end. Don't understand why? That's your problem. My take is because no matter what you want to preach, people are going to do whatever the hell they want because your opinion just doesn't matter to anyone else but yourself. Talk away but nothing will change here, it's not who we are and it's not who we have been for the last XTY years, that is my guarantee to you. And for the record, making my Illegal Mario Fangame felt GOOOO-OOOOD. -- Apologies if this all sounds rather harsh, which it does upon reflection, but I'm so tired of this thread and argument. You won't change us, we obviously can't change you, lets just let it go and do what we've been doing this whole time, making fun fangames.

Nah, we are fine.

[quote="Kritter"]EYE WATERING BIG WALL OF BLAH People still gonna make Mario fangames, the end. Don't understand why? That's your problem. My take is because no matter what you want to preach, people are going to do whatever the hell they want because your opinion just doesn't matter to anyone else but yourself. Talk away but nothing will change here, it's not who we are and it's not who we have been for the last XTY years, that is my guarantee to you. And for the record, making my Illegal Mario Fangame felt GOOOO-OOOOD. -- Apologies if this all sounds rather harsh, which it does upon reflection, but I'm so tired of this thread and argument. You won't change us, we obviously can't change you, lets just let it go and do what we've been doing this whole time, making fun fangames.[/quote] I'm sorry too, but it's just so hard to believe that none of the following are things that MFGGers do not care about: 1. Would you quit making fangames if they were considered to be illegal and liable to be shut down? 2. With that in mind, would you want to work on making them legal so that you can start back up later? 3. Would you quit making fangames if Nintendo would never appreciate your efforts? 4. If it came down to it, would you be willing to say "**** what Nintendo thinks"? 5. Would you be interested in making your own IP? I'm not asking these things to be mean, but it seems as though Nintendo and MFGG are in this limbo where they are uninterested in cooperating with the other, and that makes me sad. I also don't understand why people are making Mario fangames if Nintendo will supposedly never approve of or appreciate their efforts.

The only way to make them legal is through Congress.

[quote="P-Star7"]1. Would you quit making fangames if they were considered to be illegal and liable to be shut down?[/quote]They already are. [quote="P-Star7"]2. With that in mind, would you want to work on making them legal so that you can start back up later?[/quote]No. You're using third party assets, which is illegal and should stay illegal. It's copyright infringement and shouldn't be legalized. [quote="P-Star7"]3. Would you quit making fangames if Nintendo would never appreciate your efforts?[/quote]I quit making fangames, but not for that reason. Of course Nintendo would never appreciate my efforts. Why would they? [quote="P-Star7"]4. If it came down to it, would you be willing to say "**** what Nintendo thinks"?[/quote]I don't care what Nintendo thinks of fangames. [quote="P-Star7"]5. Would you be interested in making your own IP?[/quote]Doing just that, but not because I fear Nintendo might send me a C&D. I'm just not a fan of combining unique game ideas with pre-existing franchises, when I might as well make it my own.

[quote="P-Star7"]I'm sorry too, but it's just so hard to believe that none of the following are things that MFGGers do not care about: 1. Would you quit making fangames if they were considered to be illegal and liable to be shut down? 2. With that in mind, would you want to work on making them legal so that you can start back up later? 3. Would you quit making fangames if Nintendo would never appreciate your efforts? 4. If it came down to it, would you be willing to say "**** what Nintendo thinks"? 5. Would you be interested in making your own IP?[/quote] 1. They already are, as everyone has already said. 2. Not ever going to happen. 3. Why would I? Personally I'm not making fangames anymore, but why do I need Nintendo's Seal of Approval? I do it for fun and for myself using characters and ideas from a universe that I love and understand. Legality aside, that to me is no different to doing fanart or writing a fan fiction or doing a remix of a piece of music that I love. I don't give a fuck what Nintendo thinks. 4. See above. 5. This has nothing to do with making fangames. How is none of this sinking in? You have to be trolling by this point.

[quote="P-Star7"]1. Would you quit making fangames if they were considered to be illegal and liable to be shut down? 2. With that in mind, would you want to work on making them legal so that you can start back up later? 3. Would you quit making fangames if Nintendo would never appreciate your efforts? 4. If it came down to it, would you be willing to say "**** what Nintendo thinks"? 5. Would you be interested in making your own IP?[/quote]1. I already consider them illegal. 2. No, because it's not possible for us to change how copyright laws work or how Nintendo handles their IPs. 3. They already don't appreciate our efforts and I'm still making fangames. I don't make fangames to get Nintendo's attention anyways. 4. Probably. 5. Yes but, what does this have to do with anything? Or you mean an IP that's "Totally not Mario!!!! I swear!!!!!!!! Please don't sue me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"? Then my answer would be no.

[quote="P-Star7"]1. Would you quit making fangames if they were considered to be illegal and liable to be shut down?[/quote] They already are and we haven't yet. [quote="P-Star7"]2. With that in mind, would you want to work on making them legal so that you can start back up later?[/quote] Heck no. Creators should absolutely continue to have the creative rights to their work. If you take that from Nintendo, you take it from all of us. [quote="P-Star7"]3. Would you quit making fangames if Nintendo would never appreciate your efforts?[/quote] We haven't yet. [quote="P-Star7"]4. If it came down to it, would you be willing to say "**** what Nintendo thinks"?[/quote] We already do. [quote="P-Star7"]5. Would you be interested in making your own IP?[/quote] [url=http://store.steampowered.com/app/397640/]We[/url] [url=http://store.steampowered.com/app/253230/]already[/url] [url=http://store.steampowered.com/app/467380/]have[/url] I don't think you completely understand the situation, my friend. I can guarantee you that there are countless Nintendo employees that appreciate what we do, but at the end of the day Nintendo is a company and as a company they need to protect their brands. The Sonic Mania collaboration is great, but you need to understand that they are a completely different company in a completely different situation from Nintendo. Nintendo rarely even lets industry professionals handle their IPs. They are not going to turn around and start working with a bunch of hobbyists. They don't need to. On the other end of the spectrum, we don't need to collaborate with them either. Fans will continue to make works featuring their characters whether they like it or not. This is just how it works. While some works maybe be covered under fair use or just aren't worth pursuing, there will be large projects that might become a hassle and Nintendo will have to confront them. But by and large, they leave fans to their own devices and most of us don't seem to have a problem with that.

[quote="P-Star7"] And a fangame is supposed to mean and show that you are a fan of the original work, so it doesn't make sense to ignore what Nintendo says in this case if you don't agree with them [/quote] "Fan of the fandom" applies. I don't like Pokemon games, the anime, any manga I've read, the TCG, or official merchandise. But I do like Pokemon for what fans have done with it. Thus, Nintendo is not responsible for my appreciation of that property. [quote="P-Star7"] I know my opinion is different from a lot of people's, but if Nintendo doesn't consider Mario fangames to bolster the brand, then making Mario fangames won't bolster the fandom. [/quote] Deep fandom is disparate from Nintendo's perpetuated fanbase. Fandom sustains itself. It doesn't need Nintendo to feed it, because it'll make its own games and music and artwork and fanfiction. [quote="P-Star7"] "If you don't like Nintendo's stance on fangames, then why would you want to make one for them?" [/quote] I've never made a fangame [i]for[/i] Nintendo, and I don't know anybody who has made fan content [i]for[/i] the owners of the source (excluding commission work, like the hundreds of dollars' worth of fanart Maximus- Reborn comissioned for the Spiders and Magic series). [quote="P-Star7"] I also don't understand why people are making Mario fangames if Nintendo will supposedly never approve of or appreciate their efforts.[/quote] I like playing fangames, and lots of other people like playing fangames. Mario fangames aren't for Nintendo, they're for Mario fans.

What on earth is this thread Fangames are basically fan fiction, but in the form of a playable video game. It's supposed to be a fun side hobby, or practice for making something more original. If you are seeing it as something grander than this, you've missed the point. So if you want to make a fun little Mario fangame in your spare time to release for free, then do it. If you want to make something bigger and more professional, take the time to develop your own IP and game design and make an original game [i]that isn't a fangame[/i]. That's it. [quote="DJ Coco"]Honestly how is this even a discussion[/quote] Yeah it isn't. Closing this mess.