[quote="P-Star7"]What is the alternative? Purposefully hiding from Nintendo? And is "it isn't an issue unless it suddenly is" something we want to live under as a community?[/quote] I have to stop you here. This isn't meant to be at all rude, but your perspective is not one that MFGG as a whole shares, nor is it likely to ever share. Your points of view on things like copyright law and etc seem to come from your devout and deeply-held religious beliefs. MFGG has a diverse spectrum of religious beliefs, but very few of them happen to see eye-to-eye with you on copyright law, among other things. We don't start with "well, here's what the law and our corporate overlords allow us to do". We start with "I want to do this". We aren't mugging people or stealing bread from the working class. We're working for free when we could be making $40k+ a year doing this for somebody else, all in the name of fun. A company like Nintendo could swoop in and shut us down in a millisecond, but they could've done the same to the Angry Video Game Nerd over 10 years ago. They didn't. What is and isn't truly legal is a massive gray area. You can file a lawsuit for any reason, and anything can go to court. Whoever has more money is probably going to win; not always, but usually. When you look at it this way, yeah Nintendo could shut us down in a second, but it wouldn't be fair. It's less of a good vs evil situation than it is a very complicated system where a bunch of people who staunchly align with their respective political parties cobbled together a messy, compromised, probably very biased system by which large and powerful corporations are allowed to prey on competitors and small individuals. If it were a level playing field, we'd probably lose, but it wouldn't really be worth doing, which is fairly obvious since, as I've said twice here, Nintendo could shut us down right now with a single email. Not to mention that they've had all this time to take us down, yet they've been quite selective with who they target. Mostly just attempts at improved remakes. (Oh and some of DJ Coco's games, but they've only taken them down from Mediafire or whatever lol). This is not intended to be a shot at your beliefs in any way. People from [b]all[/b] backgrounds are welcome on MFGG, and you're an interesting and motivated user. But I have to say that I really disagree with you on this entire issue.

[quote="HylianDev"][quote="P-Star7"]What is the alternative? Purposefully hiding from Nintendo? And is "it isn't an issue unless it suddenly is" something we want to live under as a community?[/quote] I have to stop you here. This isn't meant to be at all rude, but your perspective is not one that MFGG as a whole shares, nor is it likely to ever share. Your points of view on things like copyright law and etc seem to come from your devout and deeply-held religious beliefs. MFGG has a diverse spectrum of religious beliefs, but very few of them happen to see eye-to-eye with you on copyright law, among other things. We don't start with "well, here's what the law and our corporate overlords allow us to do". We start with "I want to do this". We aren't mugging people or stealing bread from the working class. We're working for free when we could be making $40k+ a year doing this for somebody else, all in the name of fun. A company like Nintendo could swoop in and shut us down in a millisecond, but they could've done the same to the Angry Video Game Nerd over 10 years ago. They didn't. What is and isn't truly legal is a massive gray area. You can file a lawsuit for any reason, and anything can go to court. Whoever has more money is probably going to win; not always, but usually. When you look at it this way, yeah Nintendo could shut us down in a second, but it wouldn't be fair. It's less of a good vs evil situation than it is a very complicated system where a bunch of people who staunchly align with their respective political parties cobbled together a messy, compromised, probably very biased system by which large and powerful corporations are allowed to prey on competitors and small individuals. If it were a level playing field, we'd probably lose, but it wouldn't really be worth doing, which is fairly obvious since, as I've said twice here, Nintendo could shut us down right now with a single email. Not to mention that they've had all this time to take us down, yet they've been quite selective with who they target. Mostly just attempts at improved remakes. (Oh and some of DJ Coco's games, but they've only taken them down from Mediafire or whatever lol). This is not intended to be a shot at your beliefs in any way. People from [b]all[/b] backgrounds are welcome on MFGG, and you're an interesting and motivated user. But I have to say that I really disagree with you on this entire issue.[/quote] Thanks for your great post. I guess you could say these beliefs come from my religious background, but to be honest, this stance doesn't quite seem like the exclusive thing that a Christian would say. Also, I know this is different for you as a moderator, but would you rather have MFGG run under "quasi-approval" than bring it up to Nintendo and get the site shut down? I have loved the site for many years, but since my attempt at a fangame was shot down and I don't really have that much to lose, it may be different for you. And I have to be honest, I would rather the staff of MFGG talk to Nintendo and get shut down than for there to never be a verdict besides assorted DMCAs. Of course it would be great if they were approved. But if Nintendo doesn't see the value of the site after negotiations, then I must honestly say that they do not need any fan tributes.

Approval from Nintendo [i][u][b]will not happen ever[/b][/u][/i]. Why are you so hung up on this? I don't get your angle, we've been around forever with nary a problem and suddenly you rise like a justice crusader spouting doom and gloom unless we appease the gods.

Honestly how is this even a discussion

i do not care at all what the company thinks of us

[quote="DJ Coco"]Honestly how is this even a discussion[/quote] Because I think it's a valid one to have? And I'm talking about this because I think that the community needs to band together and obtain their rights instead of ignoring Nintendo. Why would I want to make a fangame right now when the situation is arguably more negative than positive (besides this community, but then again they are helpful even outside a fangame context). I even got told "no" when I emailed them. But I think that a more sincere letter from the heads of the site, who have more authority and stake in MFGG, would be a better way of handling it. I do not think that this mediocre legal situation that we are in is what this wonderful site deserves.

[quote="P-Star7"]And I'm talking about this because I think that the community needs to band together and obtain their rights instead of ignoring Nintendo. Why would I want to make a fangame right now when the situation is arguably more negative than positive (besides this community, but then again they are helpful even outside a fangame context). I even got told "no" when I emailed them. But I think that a more sincere letter from the heads of the site, who have more authority and stake in MFGG, would be a better way of handling it.[/quote] [size=200]BECAUSE IT'S [b]FUUUUUUUUUN![/b][/size] If you're scared of making fangames then don't. Problem solved. Everything else, i'll just keep saying [b][i][u]will not happen ever[/u][/i][/b].

I agree that I can just stop making them, but I don't think that Nintendo should stifle others. Will this always have to be the elephant in the room? Will we have to go against Nintendo just to be fans of them?

[quote="P-Star7"][quote="DJ Coco"]Honestly how is this even a discussion[/quote] Because I think it's a valid one to have? And I'm talking about this because I think that the community needs to band together and obtain their rights instead of ignoring Nintendo. Why would I want to make a fangame right now when the situation is arguably more negative than positive (besides this community, but then again they are helpful even outside a fangame context). I even got told "no" when I emailed them. But I think that a more sincere letter from the heads of the site, who have more authority and stake in MFGG, would be a better way of handling it. I do not think that this mediocre legal situation that we are in is what this wonderful site deserves.[/quote] We aren't an authority to Nintendo. We aren't even that big; we've got less than 100 active users, even on our best day. Less than 50. Less than 30. We do have a big name as far as Mario fangaming goes, but eh. The current situation might be treacherous for remakes, but it's good enough. There's also nothing we can ever do about it; unless we're PewDiePie, we can't possibly bring a big enough fan force behind us. I mean, even if we were PewDiePie, people think he's a Nazi now over one fraudulent WSJ article. They are currently allowing us to exist, and just taking down projects that threaten their revenue. That's good enough for me. [url=https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/stock/meeting/100629qa/05.html]Look to Question #14 from this shareholders Q&A[/url] for a better idea of Nintendo's general attitude towards taking down fangames.

[quote="HylianDev"][quote="P-Star7"][quote="DJ Coco"]Honestly how is this even a discussion[/quote] Because I think it's a valid one to have? And I'm talking about this because I think that the community needs to band together and obtain their rights instead of ignoring Nintendo. Why would I want to make a fangame right now when the situation is arguably more negative than positive (besides this community, but then again they are helpful even outside a fangame context). I even got told "no" when I emailed them. But I think that a more sincere letter from the heads of the site, who have more authority and stake in MFGG, would be a better way of handling it. I do not think that this mediocre legal situation that we are in is what this wonderful site deserves.[/quote] We aren't an authority to Nintendo. We aren't even that big; we've got less than 100 active users, even on our best day. Less than 50. Less than 30. We do have a big name as far as Mario fangaming goes, but eh. The current situation might be treacherous for remakes, but it's good enough. There's also nothing we can ever do about it; unless we're PewDiePie, we can't possibly bring a big enough fan force behind us. I mean, even if we were PewDiePie, people think he's a Nazi now over one fraudulent WSJ article. They are currently allowing us to exist, and just taking down projects that threaten their revenue. That's good enough for me. [url=https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/stock/meeting/100629qa/05.html]Look to Question #14 from this shareholders Q&A[/url] for a better idea of Nintendo's general attitude towards taking down fangames.[/quote] Thanks. Nice find. So I assume that the flip side of what Iwata said in that article (telling Nintendo about good fan projects as opposed to bad ones) is not something that you want to do?

[quote]We appreciate the interest in Nintendo and in all our video game products. To us, it represents a great sign of success and recognition of the Nintendo brand. "Nintendo" is a registered trademark of Nintendo of America Inc. Nintendo owns extensive intellectual property rights in all of its products, including video game systems, game titles, characters, game software, graphics, artwork, and screen shots. Nintendo also retains rights in content on Nintendo's web sites, including articles, artwork, screen shots and other files. Trademarks and copyrights for third-party games and characters are owned by the companies that market or license those products. While we are grateful for all the requests for permission to use Nintendo properties, we are not able to grant such requests. We receive thousands of requests and we do not have adequate staffing to review them all. Therefore, our general policy is to decline requests for permission for the use of Nintendo properties. Although we are not able to grant permission, use of Nintendo's properties without formal permission by Nintendo may still be allowed under the relevant laws of the particular jurisdiction involved. Thus, we encourage you to seek your own legal counsel if you have any questions about whether your particular proposed use is permitted without Nintendo's authorization. Nintendo cannot provide legal advice. We appreciate your support.[/quote] Just found this on the Nintendo FAQ.

[quote="P-Star7"][quote]We appreciate the interest in Nintendo and in all our video game products. To us, it represents a great sign of success and recognition of the Nintendo brand. "Nintendo" is a registered trademark of Nintendo of America Inc. Nintendo owns extensive intellectual property rights in all of its products, including video game systems, game titles, characters, game software, graphics, artwork, and screen shots. Nintendo also retains rights in content on Nintendo's web sites, including articles, artwork, screen shots and other files. Trademarks and copyrights for third-party games and characters are owned by the companies that market or license those products. While we are grateful for all the requests for permission to use Nintendo properties, we are not able to grant such requests. We receive thousands of requests and we do not have adequate staffing to review them all. Therefore, our general policy is to decline requests for permission for the use of Nintendo properties. Although we are not able to grant permission, use of Nintendo's properties without formal permission by Nintendo may still be allowed under the relevant laws of the particular jurisdiction involved. Thus, we encourage you to seek your own legal counsel if you have any questions about whether your particular proposed use is permitted without Nintendo's authorization. Nintendo cannot provide legal advice. We appreciate your support.[/quote] Just found this on the Nintendo FAQ.[/quote]Okay. So?

so what exactly would contacting them do

[quote="Mors"][quote="P-Star7"][quote]We appreciate the interest in Nintendo and in all our video game products. To us, it represents a great sign of success and recognition of the Nintendo brand. "Nintendo" is a registered trademark of Nintendo of America Inc. Nintendo owns extensive intellectual property rights in all of its products, including video game systems, game titles, characters, game software, graphics, artwork, and screen shots. Nintendo also retains rights in content on Nintendo's web sites, including articles, artwork, screen shots and other files. Trademarks and copyrights for third-party games and characters are owned by the companies that market or license those products. While we are grateful for all the requests for permission to use Nintendo properties, we are not able to grant such requests. We receive thousands of requests and we do not have adequate staffing to review them all. Therefore, our general policy is to decline requests for permission for the use of Nintendo properties. Although we are not able to grant permission, use of Nintendo's properties without formal permission by Nintendo may still be allowed under the relevant laws of the particular jurisdiction involved. Thus, we encourage you to seek your own legal counsel if you have any questions about whether your particular proposed use is permitted without Nintendo's authorization. Nintendo cannot provide legal advice. We appreciate your support.[/quote] Just found this on the Nintendo FAQ.[/quote]Okay. So?[/quote] So, it seems to say that Nintendo will not grant permission, unless it is something that would not be required to ask permission of them in the first place. Since the closest thing I can find to legal counsel is "VideoGameLawyer"'s posts on Reddit who says that they are not legal, it seems that Nintendo fangames are not legal. How should we as a community learn and move on from this? Should we replace Mario fangames with original assets, as I am trying to do with Hello Tux Engine?

why are you talking like this is some huge issue? nintendo will literally never bother with us so long as we don't make carbon copies of their games that confuse the branding

[quote="P-Star7"]How should we as a community learn and move on from this? Should we replace Mario fangames with original assets, as I am trying to do with Hello Tux Engine?[/quote] We'll do the same we've been doing forever. The end. You don't speak for the community, so do what makes YOU comfortable, and let everyone else do what they want. This might be one of the most frustrating back and forth conversations I've seen in a while.

So a guy walks into a bar... and asks how everyone can work together to be abstain from alcohol.

[quote="P-Star7"]So, it seems to say that Nintendo will not grant permission, unless it is something that would not be required to ask permission of them in the first place. Since the closest thing I can find to legal counsel is "VideoGameLawyer"'s posts on Reddit who says that they are not legal, it seems that Nintendo fangames are not legal. How should we as a community learn and move on from this? Should we replace Mario fangames with original assets, as I am trying to do with Hello Tux Engine?[/quote]I don't think you understand what we are saying. We know it's illegal. We know Nintendo doesn't want us to use their IPs. But we continue because Nintendo didn't really do anything despite being aware of us. If you don't want to do something illegal, that's fine. There's nothing wrong about that. Just don't try to convince us to make original games because that's not going to work.

[quote="CouchTomato"]So a guy walks into a bar... and asks how everyone can work together to be abstain from alcohol.[/quote] I think a more appropriate comparison would be walking into a bar and asking everybody how they can abolish restrictive alcohol-related legislation.

As of currently, fan games are a bit of a gray area or otherwise afflicted with "Schrodinger's Legality". Basically, it's kinda both legal and illegal until the copyright holder (this being Nintendo in this case) makes a statement. As for trying to [i]get[/i] such a statement out of them, I'm with the rest of the posters here in that I think that's a sleeping bear it'd be wise not to poke. If you ask me, best case scenario is that the Big N ignores it, but worst case could bring some unwanted attention. All in all, I basically consider them fine until proven not fine.