Modernizing may expand the possible audience, though, if MFGG really wanted to get more traffic, it would expand off of mario, allowing decent rips from any game, and expanding from mario fangames, to any fangame as well as indie games. the rule would be that it all must be freeware. now, im not saying we should actually go and do this, at least not yet. but it is one thing that could help.

I think we need some more event's, and maybe some larger comps that last for most of the month, and would have a seperate set of badges for it as it would be a monthly thin, meaning one type of comp a month, so there could be a monthly comp badge set.) Between fangaming dying, less motiation in general throughout hte internet for fangaming, and the most of the tools that started the foundation of mfgg, being out of reach for normal people. Fangaming and their communities have started to die. I think it's time we move on and expand our focus into general developement. It's going ot be hard to serve a community that's on the decline.

I never mentioned the merging of databases or anything related to "functionality" - clearly there's a deficit of technical minds when it comes to web development, otherwise something might have happened in the last x years. My point is Char isn't here, he's probably not coming back because it's normal to develop new interests over time, don't put your eggs in one basket etc. Good design can compensate for failures in other areas, because you'd be pushing your strengths and hiding your weaknesses. There's no point in dreaming of a fantastic super duper "system" if nobody is around to implement one. It's blatantly obvious you aren't going to get your "MFGG 3.0" because you haven't got anyone to build it - the focus should be "MFGG 2.1" instead - taking what you have and cleaning it up - make it "look" like it's new, even if it isn't. and by that I mean, your main site was built for 1024x768 resolutions and half its userbase running IE6. It looks damn ugly on my screen, and the first impression I get is of a site that's stuck in the past. Worries which are then confirmed when you look through the database. Those are two issues that can be fixed without a brand new content management system that's an achievable short-term goal. A medium-term one could be becoming a generic fangaming website, or to opt for general software development (of which there's a growing consensus for). Don't blame market conditions - take the inititive and lead from the front - find a new audience to thrive on and maybe you wouldn't have any more problems. If there are hurdles preventing this topic from having a purpose... find someone who can overcome it

[quote="Black Squirrel"]the entire direction of this place probably needs to be re-assessed if you're to survive (and succeed) in the long term.[/quote] I agree with this completely. Unfortunately, there are many factors hampering MFGG's chances of implementing revolutionary advancements. One problem that people often overlook is that all of our staff members are considerably older now. MFGG isn't like it once was, when most of our admins were 13-16 years old and had a bountiful supply of free time. Nowadays, every staff member is older than the oldest staffer was at one time, and with every administrator having reached the second half of college, free time is harder to come by. Looking outside of our current staff, we haven't exactly spotted a new PHP wizard in our midst. That's not to mention the assortment of technological hurdles Guinea discussed in his post - from what he's discussed, even simple fixes can end up being surprisingly complicated. Because revolutionary change has been difficult to achieve, we've generally had to depend on evolutionary changes - things like developing a mobile-friendly skin. The bad news is that these tweaks tend to consist of fixing what's broken, rather than adding new features that enhance the experience. Our biggest challenge is that the model MFGG is based on - a main site dedicated to sharing static content, and a forum and a wiki for dynamic content - has lost steam in recent years, as traditional forums have declined at the hands of newer distribution methods such as Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, and those awful imageboard thingies. Among forums I have accounts on, [b]every single one[/b] has declined significantly from its peak, both in terms of posts per day and number of active members. Most of these forums (the ones that still exist, that is) maintain ongoing discussions about how to revitalize their respective communities, but no one seems to be able to reach a consensus on how to improve the situation. A more appealing, intuitive forum system can't hurt, but overhauling existing forum software is no easy task (Kyori, a mighty gifted programmer, can attest to that). One advantage MFGG has over comparable communities is that we still have a steady stream of new members. Unfortunately, inflation of the standards to become a recognized developer has caused a lot of new members to rely on premade engines as a shortcut to making impressive-looking games. And premade engines are consistently used poorly - the vast majority of new Hello Engine games crowd the spectrum between "mediocre" and "absolutely woeful." Sometimes it seems the latest batch of 12- or 13-year-olds joining the forums is less mature than the newcomers of a few years ago, but then again it might just be that the reduction of forum elitism has resulted in more mainsiters joining and becoming active. We have a massive audience of people who might enjoy playing the higher-quality games posted on MFGG. It's not an exaggeration to say that most people under 30 years of age from English-speaking countries have played a Mario game at some point. Even people who lack the slightest interest in video games might've played Mario Kart or SSB, or a Mario game that came with a DS. If we encouraged our existing members to do a better job of marketing their work, I'm sure we could increase downloads/hits. The problem is getting these people to become contributing members of MFGG, rather than downloading a single game and forgetting about the place. In the long run, we'll probably have to become a slightly more indie-oriented community, but I'm not sure about the best way of accomplishing this objective. Aside from the periodic frustrations, MFGG is still a fun place to make games and hang out, and I hope it can continue to be a vibrant online community for years to come. But to keep it from declining the way so many similar communities have fallen in recent years, we're going have to put on our hard hats and our thinking caps.

[quote]Because revolutionary change has been difficult to achieve, we've generally had to depend on evolutionary changes - things like developing a mobile-friendly skin. The bad news is that these tweaks tend to consist of fixing what's broken, rather than adding new features that enhance the experience.[/quote] This isn't necessarily a bad thing and even so, a mobile theme is still enhancing the experience. If you are keen on 'revolutionising' the site then perhaps take the Google approach and schedule a weekend just for people to create stuff for the website. People can experiment with new designs, new plugins, etc. I'm not sure how you would delegate the tasks between the staff and members but it could be a fun experience and the site will probably get something positive out of it. [quote]Unfortunately, inflation of the standards to become a recognized developer has caused a lot of new members to rely on premade engines as a shortcut to making impressive-looking games. And premade engines are consistently used poorly - the vast majority of new Hello Engine games crowd the spectrum between "mediocre" and "absolutely woeful." Sometimes it seems the latest batch of 12- or 13-year-olds joining the forums is less mature than the newcomers of a few years ago, but then again it might just be that the reduction of forum elitism has resulted in more mainsiters joining and becoming active.[/quote] Well I haven't been here to study the quality but it seems more likely that it is around the same because everybody has to start out somewhere. The world is still better off with pre-made engines because making games is a creative learning experience and often people with great design skills get turned away due to not knowing how to program. Having tools where you don't really need programming skills to get your concept idea is just revolutionary compared to what I had in school (which was basiclly just GM). Kids these days have no idea how lucky they are because they can freely create something high class in a professionally polished engine like Unity or UDK and sell it for money, even without programming skills either. That is absolutely crazy. But to relate it back to what you were saying, everybody needs to start off somewhere. You aren't just born with game design skills, you need to develop hem. Completing a game, even a woeful one, and getting it out there is a massive learning experience in itself and I would much rather see an aspiring developer release something crap, getting feedback and then releasing something better next time than have them just leave it without showing anyone. [quote]We have a massive audience of people who might enjoy playing the higher-quality games posted on MFGG. It's not an exaggeration to say that most people under 30 years of age from English-speaking countries have played a Mario game at some point. Even people who lack the slightest interest in video games might've played Mario Kart or SSB, or a Mario game that came with a DS. If we encouraged our existing members to do a better job of marketing their work, I'm sure we could increase downloads/hits. The problem is getting these people to become contributing members of MFGG, rather than downloading a single game and forgetting about the place. In the long run, we'll probably have to become a slightly more indie-oriented community, but I'm not sure about the best way of accomplishing this objective.[/quote] I would personally be interested in seeing this forum head in the direction of general game development but that's mainly because I don't enjoy making fangames and would rather see new concepts from people rather than having them copying existing ones (though that can be useful as a learning experience). There are definitely some talented developers here and it seems like a waste for their skills to go unnoticed or let alone tied down to making a replica of an existing IP when they could be doing some fresh. I also wouldn't be surprised if a lot of potential players of the games are turned off due to the general consensus that fangames are going to be lesser quality than the real thing (regardless of whether or not that is actually true).

Fanta, I should clarify what I said about premade engines. IDEs and engines like Unity are amazing tools that greatly aid the game-design process. What I was complaining about were premade engines like the Hello Engine, which you may not be familiar with. These engines, which are designed for making Mario platformers, are frequently used on MFGG and offer a wealth of features. Unfortunately, because Hello's engine is so complex and so poorly-documented, it's almost impossible to use the engine to make anything other than a Mario platform game in SMB3 graphical style. Gaining a steady supply of new members, even those whose first games are terrible, is a great asset for MFGG, but an increasing proportion of these members are dependent on these engines - and I know from personal experience how limiting they can be. Major changes - like improving the mainsite software - would have to be performed by a staff member with advanced coding skills. But a lot of smaller improvements could be undertaken by ordinary members, and I like the idea of launching a "Let's Improve MFGG Event," perhaps on a weekend or when most kids are off school.

[quote="[url=http://phpbb.mfgg.net/viewtopic.php?p=376482#p376482]VinnyVideo[/url]"]Fanta, I should clarify what I said about premade engines. IDEs and engines like Unity are amazing tools that greatly aid the game-design process. What I was complaining about were premade engines like the Hello Engine, which you may not be familiar with. These engines, which are designed for making Mario platformers, are frequently used on MFGG and offer a wealth of features. Unfortunately, because Hello's engine is so complex and so poorly-documented, it's almost impossible to use the engine to make anything other than a Mario platform game in SMB3 graphical style. Gaining a steady supply of new members, even those whose first games are terrible, is a great asset for MFGG, but an increasing proportion of these members are dependent on these engines - and I know from personal experience how limiting they can be. Major changes - like improving the mainsite software - would have to be performed by a staff member with advanced coding skills. But a lot of smaller improvements could be undertaken by ordinary members, and I like the idea of launching a "Let's Improve MFGG Event," perhaps on a weekend or when most kids are off school.[/quote] I figured that's what you meant but I brought it up anyway. XD Regardless, I doubt the quality is much different, it is just a matter of the new members learning the tools they have available to them just like every other person here.

This keeps going back to "change the software" - [i]you don't need to change the software[/i] (and we keep establishing the fact that nobody understands PHP so clearly this isn't an option (spoilers: [url=http://php.net/docs.php]it's a quite well documented language with lots of support[/url] - it's not the hurdle it once was nor is it the only solution to web-related problems)) I mean we should really know how a website works, even one from 2006. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model%E2%80%93view%E2%80%93controller]Read up on your design patterns[/url] - from a MVC point of view, you're only touching the "V", which in website terms accounts to... effectively a bunch of CSS (aka [url=http://www.mfgg.net/template/2/style.css]this file[/url]) and some images. Given the time period, RII's probably got some hardcoded HTML in there but even then, you could probably avoid all of this - certainly it's avoidable on these boards (I should know, I made half the skins in use) you're not going to add any functionality in this first step - the objective is to make things look more appealing. Gutting things out comes later, or... not at all - I would suggest to you it is the "design" of MFGG which is flawed, not the execution. there are plenty of practical things that can be done without any technical knowledge at all. You mention social networks - they're all free, where's the MFGG twitter account? (I mean [url=https://twitter.com/chirp_squirrel]even I have one of those[/url]). Apparently none of the admins have time - get some new admins then. Pre-made engines a problem? Delete them - you're hosting them on this server none of this is "revolutionary". It could be all done tomorrow

[quote="Black Squirrel"]Apparently none of the admins have time - get some new admins then.[/quote] If their were people who'd qualified then i'd think the current staff, would've gotten someone or two, I mean, even tough mfgg isn't as active as it used to be, there aren't really that many of them that are quite active and are highly technology literate, I mean I know Elyk has the minus world to look after, but he's barely on mfgg, and Guinea's more or less on a different timezone compaired to a deal of the user db. Plus TBH, alot of the staff in general aren't really that active.

What is the significance of a 'main site' anyway? What benefit are you getting that you couldn't get from a blog, Wiki or forum? From what I've seen of the main site, it is mainly to demonstrate the finished works of the members which you easily achieve with a blog and tag anything that needs to be grouped together. It might be much simpler and efficient to just set up a Wordpress blog instead of redesigning an entire website. Heck, with Wordpress you won't need to design the bridge from the forum to the site because [url=http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/wp-phpbb-bridge/]it has already built it for you[/url]. [quote]This keeps going back to "change the software" - you don't need to change the software (and we keep establishing the fact that nobody understands PHP so clearly this isn't an option (spoilers: it's a quite well documented language with lots of support - it's not the hurdle it once was nor is it the only solution to web-related problems)) I mean we should really know how a website works, even one from 2006. Read up on your design patterns - from a MVC point of view, you're only touching the "V", which in website terms accounts to... effectively a bunch of CSS (aka this file) and some images. Given the time period, RII's probably got some hardcoded HTML in there but even then, you could probably avoid all of this - certainly it's avoidable on these boards (I should know, I made half the skins in use)[/quote] I think what they're getting it is that at the moment the technology isn't very future-proof and doesn't allow for easy maintenance or scalability. For instance, if a proper design pattern was in place from the beginning (such as MVC) then we could probably avoid such huge debates over simple additions like a mobile skins which would, as you said, only affect the View and not the Model or Controller. This is why I suggest use something like Wordpress instead because it has already been smartly designed, been rigorous tested and already has a way to bridge it and the PhpBB forum. Why solve a problem somebody else has already solved for you, right? [quote]Apparently none of the admins have time - get some new admins then. [/quote] To be fair it isn't easy finding skilled people who are available for a not-for-profit website when we all have other priorities. I mean, if you know of people then I'm sure the staff here would be happy to meet them and get them on board. [quote]Pre-made engines a problem?[/quote] I'm still trying to work out what the problem is with them. They're just tools that people have to learn. The 'low-quality' products can be pinned down to inexperience and not the tool themselves so I see no reason to remove them.

@fantanoice: For the idea to replace the mainsite with a blog, I'm not for this, because the mainsite isn't a blog. It's a content management system, designed to find resources for Mario fangames as well as the games. Users are supposed to be able to upload resources, which then go through a quality assessment process. I'm not sure how well a blog software like WordPress is suited for these needs. As for the new admins and pre-made engines, I agree with what you said. Also, even if we say pre-made engines are a problem, they don't stop being one just because WE don't host them anymore. Then other sites will host them, and newcomers just go to those sites instead of ours. But as said, the problem with the engines is not the engines themselves, it is the games made with them, and we do have a policy to decline games that do little to expand on a used engine, just like before we declined games that just were a reskinned platformer tutorial. The pre-made engine discussion is simply one of many possible reasons why fangaming is on the decline: The "holy grail" of Mario fangaming, which is a perfect replica of the classic Mario game engines, has more or less already been achieved, and like you have said yourself: Why solve a problem, if someone else already did it for you? In other news, I have received a preview of the mobile skin for the forums supernova is making. It seems to come along. Fantanoice, would you perhaps want to collaborate with supernova to get a satisfying result, seeing how you probably have an image in your mind of what makes a good mobile skin for our forum?

[quote="[url=http://phpbb.mfgg.net/viewtopic.php?p=376567#p376567]Guinea[/url]"]@fantanoice: For the idea to replace the mainsite with a blog, I'm not for this, because the mainsite isn't a blog. It's a content management system, designed to find resources for Mario fangames as well as the games. Users are supposed to be able to upload resources, which then go through a quality assessment process. I'm not sure how well a blog software like WordPress is suited for these needs.[/quote] Cheers for clearing that up. I did a brief search and looks as though it is reasonably simple to set up WordPress as a CMS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o2XcHqQbRY Also found this video which does a decent comparison of the three biggest CMS platforms: Joomla, WordPress and Drupal. I haven't had too much experience with any of them but it seems that because we have a lot of people who aren't technically minded, then WordPress or Joomla would be good options because they take the GUI approach. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Onf_SUv61i4 Also seems like you bridge PhpBB and Joomla as well, which would save a lot of hassle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MCiDHr17a8 My knowledge of CMS platforms is pretty limited though so I can't give too many recommendations. It would probably be a good thing to explore in one of those "Let's Improve MFGG" weekends if you guys ever do one. [quote]In other news, I have received a preview of the mobile skin for the forums supernova is making. It seems to come along. Fantanoice, would you perhaps want to collaborate with supernova to get a satisfying result, seeing how you probably have an image in your mind of what makes a good mobile skin for our forum?[/quote] I'm not really the holy grail of mobile skins but I can help out where I can. XD Seems the basic thing to do is to follow the KISS approach and cut as much fat as possible. It is all about the content and being able to read it quickly and easily.

[quote="[url=http://phpbb.mfgg.net/viewtopic.php?p=376572#p376572]fantanoice[/url]"][quote="[url=http://phpbb.mfgg.net/viewtopic.php?p=376567#p376567]Guinea[/url]"]@fantanoice: For the idea to replace the mainsite with a blog, I'm not for this, because the mainsite isn't a blog. It's a content management system, designed to find resources for Mario fangames as well as the games. Users are supposed to be able to upload resources, which then go through a quality assessment process. I'm not sure how well a blog software like WordPress is suited for these needs.[/quote] Cheers for clearing that up. I did a brief search and looks as though it is reasonably simple to set up WordPress as a CMS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o2XcHqQbRY Also found this video which does a decent comparison of the three biggest CMS platforms: Joomla, WordPress and Drupal. I haven't had too much experience with any of them but it seems that because we have a lot of people who aren't technically minded, then WordPress or Joomla would be good options because they take the GUI approach. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Onf_SUv61i4 Also seems like you bridge PhpBB and Joomla as well, which would save a lot of hassle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MCiDHr17a8 My knowledge of CMS platforms is pretty limited though so I can't give too many recommendations. It would probably be a good thing to explore in one of those "Let's Improve MFGG" weekends if you guys ever do one. [quote]In other news, I have received a preview of the mobile skin for the forums supernova is making. It seems to come along. Fantanoice, would you perhaps want to collaborate with supernova to get a satisfying result, seeing how you probably have an image in your mind of what makes a good mobile skin for our forum?[/quote] I'm not really the holy grail of mobile skins but I can help out where I can. XD Seems the basic thing to do is to follow the KISS approach and cut as much fat as possible. It is all about the content and being able to read it quickly and easily.[/quote] @Joomla etc: I'd honestly prefer a customized self-written CMS. It gives us a lot more control over the kind of content we support and the user submissions, as well as giving us the option to extend it however we like. Our CMS is supposed to be something unique and streamlined exactly for what we do here. I think of myself capable of writing such a system, the only problem is the time really. I expect myself to have some spare time the latest in the summer break to get something done. As someone who has written multiple CMSes himself in the past, I really don't want to use something like Joomla for a special interest site such as this one. Char has actually left us with a quite useful base of code that I can recycle which does a lot of the database work and handles security issues that I can adapt and use, so that should help. @Mobile Skin: I didn't mean to say that you're THE expert for mobile skins, but that you are the one who suggested the mobile skin in the first place, so you probably know yourself from your own experience if the mobile skin satisfies your needs. Although I also know what would make a good mobile skin in theory, I'm not really a mobile browser user, so I could only give feedback from an outsider view while you're more the "target audience" for this skin, that's why I suggested it. I think someone who actually uses something can give useful feedback.

you know, I have noticed around the internet that a lot of links to the site are because creators are citing sources for their sound effects, music, or sprites. We could do... something based around that?

[quote="[url=http://phpbb.mfgg.net/viewtopic.php?p=376577#p376577]Genogenesis7[/url]"]you know, I have noticed around the internet that a lot of links to the site are because creators are citing sources for their sound effects, music, or sprites. We could do... something based around that?[/quote] Well, we could technically expand to be a "fangame resource and gaming" community. Most other fangaming communities are dying, especially so the ones that were sister projects of MFGG, like MFM. So growing into an overall fangaming (and possibly indie) resource page. Might even send requests to those that are already dead if they want to upload their resources to us and maybe join the community. But this is just a theoretical thought, for now.

We probably should do that, but we need to take small steps, meaning start with BS's advice on prettying/modernizing the site, and then focus on trying to make it so people will be interested in visiting the site more often, instead of taking a look and not coming back ever. But remember, site visuals are only one part of the complicated puzzle.

[quote="[url=http://phpbb.mfgg.net/viewtopic.php?p=376591#p376591]Shadow Kami[/url]"]We probably should do that, but we need to take small steps, meaning start with BS's advice on prettying/modernizing the site, and then focus on trying to make it so people will be interested in visiting the site more often, instead of taking a look and not coming back ever. But remember, site visuals are only one part of the complicated puzzle.[/quote] Indeed. Before we expand to all fangames, we need to have a solid and scalable system for only what we already have. Then we can think about expanding.

The content management side of MFGG's main site would be tricky to implement in blog or wiki form - theoretically no, you don't need a traditional website like you do now... but you'd need dramatic extensions and that's running before you can walk. These things aren't broken - the dated features are again, the visuals, and things like the multiple log-ins (which has been a noted issue since the dawn of time) it doesn't matter if things aren't scalable - you're not "scaling" it (yet). It's just an attempt to inject some drive into the whole "let's make a nice website" thing. There's absolutely no crime in people being too busy to volunteer their time and effort, but it might not be right to deny others a chance. And it's totally not a problem if someone comes in with an array of ideas they can't put into action - there will probably be a lot of experimentation (and failures) before you find something that works - better than sitting still

[quote="[url=http://phpbb.mfgg.net/viewtopic.php?p=376614#p376614]Black Squirrel[/url]"]These things aren't broken[/quote] Actually yes, the mainsite is, due to its internal structure, breaking apart. A lot of bugs keep appearing that would break the site even more if I attempt to fix. Even Char and RII himself didn't want to touch those bugs with a ten foot pole. This is why the idea of an MFGG3.0 mainsite came about: Because fixing and extending the original mainsite would have been even more work. So yeah, only fixing visuals isn't going to get us anywhere with the mainsite software as it is, especially considering that in the last years Char has hacked so much stuff into the templates i wouldn't even expect the reskinning mechanism to work without problems. I see a time window in the summer break where I can hopefully put together this new mainsite.

I don't see the big problem with prettying/modernising the mainsite as it is. As long the databases exist, the rest is a piece of cake. I also agree that MFGG will probably need to extend its reach to all fangames in the near future in order to survive the long-term. I also agree with Guinea that using Joomla or other pre-existing CMS's will probably not work out as well as it might seem on paper, MFGG is a beast that really needs its own CMS.