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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:37 pm 
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Thatgamerguy2234 wrote:
In my opinion,Sonic 3 and knuckles will never be one game,but rather,as separate games.


To give a different perspective on this.
I find Sonic 3 & Knuckles to be more satisfactory when played separately, although I'm aware that it's an unpopular opinion.
For me, it's somewhat strange for the end medley to only give homage to the latter half of the game.

Although I do admit that the games were originally planned to be one game, but I highly doubt that the original plan was exactly the Sonic 3 & Knuckles that we got.

 
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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Gamerguy was right guys. This game is the bomb!





Even IGN likes it! People are literally calling it the BEST SONIC GAME EVER!

 
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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:35 pm 
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It's great.

It's not perfect though.

My critique would be the fact that there's simply not enough ORIGINAL content. I get that the "classic" stages are all redone and brand new, and that's cool, but I would honestly have preferred some original stages over classic ones.

It's also got plenty of bugs, I've had to reset the game on a few boss battles because they glitched out.

And there are a lot of cheap deaths or hits, which seems to be normal for Sonic games I suppose, but I don't remember quite so many from the classics.

With those complaints out of the way though, it's a REALLY good Sonic game anyway. I went back and looked at the Classic Sonic segment from Sonic Forces and now I just dread playing it because I can already see how much worse it'll feel, Sonic Mania just feels "right". Plus it makes some amazing nods to Sonic's past, everytime I see a little easter egg I can't help but giggle.

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:58 pm 
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I'll admit, as good as Mania is, it's got me worried. If Sonic has to keep "resetting" every so often in order to make good games, I'm led to question just how he intends to stay relevant in the future.

Can't keep up by running backwards, after all.

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:08 pm 
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I would love to see a game with the same physics and attention to detail as Mania, but with proper HD graphics. Ideally, I'd love to see a modern game that uses the art style of the animated intro, with tons of hand drawn, smoothly animated graphics and so on. If it worked for Rayman in Rayman Origins, then it'd surely work for Sonic.

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:36 pm 
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idk where the the "first good Sonic game in 20 years" meme comes from. I love Sonic Generations and Sonic Colors is supposedly pretty good.

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:47 pm 
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i think mania is gonna have the most longevity of the "revisit the classic levels!" gimmick because of the revamped level design and setpieces. it goes a long way with some of the zones (some way farther than others, like stardust speedway basically feels like a brand new zone) and the high replayability of the game as a whole keeps things interesting in repeat playthroughs.

i love how mania is animated, but next game should definitely put the pagoda west guys on HD asset duty. they already worked on sonic 2 HD, they should be able to do it again for a brand new 2D sonic, preferably with all new zones (but if they must return to some older ones, i'd rather them be both obscure and rehauled so as to keep them fresh)

Pedigree wrote:
idk where the the "first good Sonic game in 20 years" meme comes from. I love Sonic Generations and Sonic Colors is supposedly pretty good.

IGN, egoraptor, etc

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:36 pm 
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Kritter has summoned me here with the word "Rayman." But the game "Sonic Mania" has also summoned me here, because it's literally up there as one of my favorite Sonic games, with Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic Unleashed.

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:51 pm 
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Zero Kirby wrote:
I'll admit, as good as Mania is, it's got me worried. If Sonic has to keep "resetting" every so often in order to make good games, I'm led to question just how he intends to stay relevant in the future.

Can't keep up by running backwards, after all.


That hardly makes any sense? This would be tantamount to saying that Paper Mario returning to the gameplay of the original two games would be "running backwards". The Sonic series hasn't had a genuinely excellent game since Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Sonic Adventure 1, Unleashed HD, Generations, and All-Stars Racing Transformed were all decent games, but nothing worth obsessing over-their flaws become all-too-apparent on repeat playthroughs.

Colors, on the other hand, is dreadful. The levels are designed with slow block platforming that do not suit the character's controls in the slightest. The Wisps are meant to be the main gimmick of the game, but most of them have fairly horrid controls and tend to break the already-shoddy pacing further, especially Drill and Spike. The game is mainly praised as a result of its console; the Wii was lacking in 3D platformers, the previous Sonic title on the Wii (Unleashed SD) was nearly shovelware, and Colors is very well-done visually by the Wii's standards.

Sonic Mania is not merely a continuation of the original Sonic games, but an evolution. A Super Mario World to SMB3, a Mega Man X to Mega Man. Many of the pace-breaking design elements have been eliminated or replaced (this is especially obvious when comparing the first act of Flying Battery with its original incarnation), the main character's moveset has been bolstered with an ability that encourages fluid movement, and the visuals have been directed towards a proper art style rather than the bounds of console limitations.

To carry the Mario analogy further, Sonic Advance 1 is much closer to the New Super Mario Bros of the series. That game was the most accurate to the classics of any game prior to Mania, but failed to innovate, and tended to slow the game's pace down compared to Sonic 3/SMW. It was a perfectly acceptable game, but nothing groundbreaking.

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:27 am 
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Totally disagree with you on Colours being a bad game, I genuinely enjoyed that game, far FAR more than I liked Generations.

I also don't see how Mania is an evolution of the original Sonic games. They didn't evolve anything really? The core mechanics and ideas are all exactly the same barring a single new move that isn't that exciting. Not only that but it recycles half the levels and even the special stages aren't original which is something I don't think would've been too much to ask. It's a love letter, not an evolution. It shows us what we already loved about Sonic games of the past but it doesn't go beyond that.

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:25 am 
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Magnemania wrote:
Zero Kirby wrote:
I'll admit, as good as Mania is, it's got me worried. If Sonic has to keep "resetting" every so often in order to make good games, I'm led to question just how he intends to stay relevant in the future.

Can't keep up by running backwards, after all.


That hardly makes any sense? This would be tantamount to saying that Paper Mario returning to the gameplay of the original two games would be "running backwards". The Sonic series hasn't had a genuinely excellent game since Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Sonic Adventure 1, Unleashed HD, Generations, and All-Stars Racing Transformed were all decent games, but nothing worth obsessing over-their flaws become all-too-apparent on repeat playthroughs.


See that's the thing. Sonic's been doing this for years, and the only real gameplay evolution in Mania is the Drop Dash. It's a good manoeuvre, and a genuine joy, but other than that Sonic Mania's just another Genesis Sonic game, it just has slightly longish levels.

Mario not so much. Mario hasn't really ever needed to go "back to basics" like Sonic has. That's what I mean. Sonic needs to keep "resetting" because he keeps coming up with duds like Sonic 06, Sonic 4, Sonic Lost World, and having dry spells. Mario's only started recently having this problem, so a quick visit to his past isn't unwarranted, to get back on track.

Sonic's stuck there.

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:27 am 
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Totally disagree with you on Colours being a bad game, I genuinely enjoyed that game, far FAR more than I liked Generations.


Thank you for providing counterarguments. It's nice to put effort into explaining the game design aspect of why a game fails, only to have someone bluntly reply "no you're wrong".

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I also don't see how Mania is an evolution of the original Sonic games. They didn't evolve anything really? The core mechanics and ideas are all exactly the same barring a single new move that isn't that exciting. Not only that but it recycles half the levels and even the special stages aren't original which is something I don't think would've been too much to ask. It's a love letter, not an evolution. It shows us what we already loved about Sonic games of the past but it doesn't go beyond that.


Kritter, I would recommend that you actually play the original Sonic games before crying out that Mania copies them. The level design in the returning stages is massively different from the originals, barring parts of Green Hill Act 1 and a couple of setpieces, and anyone who grew up with the Sega Genesis/Master System can attest to that. The Special Stages are not only entirely original (unless the concept of "3D" is unoriginal) but they far outstrip the four different Special Stages of the previous games, giving the player significantly more control over how quickly they finish the stage and adding proper nuances to the controls (jump-drifting, modification of the player's speed and turning).

The only parts of the levels properly reused are the themes, and if you have a problem with reusing themes, I know a series that should bother you significantly more:

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See that's the thing. Sonic's been doing this for years,


Ah, right. We've had Sonic & Knuckles release in 1994, and Sonic Mania in 2017. Truly, these games are being produced far too frequently; we should've given it another 23 years before releasing another entry.

Unless you're referring to the concept of Sonic deciding to go forth with a new brand of garbage every five years or so. Fixing what isn't broken, etcetera.

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Mario not so much. Mario hasn't really ever needed to go "back to basics" like Sonic has.


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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:36 am 
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Magnemania wrote:
Quote:
Totally disagree with you on Colours being a bad game, I genuinely enjoyed that game, far FAR more than I liked Generations.


Thank you for providing counterarguments. It's nice to put effort into explaining the game design aspect of why a game fails, only to have someone bluntly reply "no you're wrong".

Quote:
I also don't see how Mania is an evolution of the original Sonic games. They didn't evolve anything really? The core mechanics and ideas are all exactly the same barring a single new move that isn't that exciting. Not only that but it recycles half the levels and even the special stages aren't original which is something I don't think would've been too much to ask. It's a love letter, not an evolution. It shows us what we already loved about Sonic games of the past but it doesn't go beyond that.


Kritter, I would recommend that you actually play the original Sonic games before crying out that Mania copies them. The level design in the returning stages is massively different from the originals, barring parts of Green Hill Act 1 and a couple of setpieces, and anyone who grew up with the Sega Genesis/Master System can attest to that. The Special Stages are not only entirely original (unless the concept of "3D" is unoriginal) but they far outstrip the four different Special Stages of the previous games, giving the player significantly more control over how quickly they finish the stage and adding proper nuances to the controls (jump-drifting, modification of the player's speed and turning).


Do I need to provide a counter argument if I disagree with you? I thought I was entitled to my opinion without having to defend it? I just liked it is all.

As for playing the original trilogy, I grew up with the original trilogy. I was a Sonic fan before I was a Mario fan, I joined Sonic communities way before I joined MFGG. I already mentioned that the original stages have been redone and that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that it still takes the music, graphical influence and level design gimmicks from the original games and re-uses them to make original stages. Yes sure they're all fancy and new but you can't tell me you'd prefer remade stages over more stages akin to Studiopolis?

As for the special stages, the UFO catch is just a twist on the UFO catch stages from Sonic CD mixed with the basic idea from Sonic 2, and the Blue Sphere stages are exactly the same with remixed levels I can only assume. The special stages from Sonic 1, 2, 3 and CD were all totally different and I kind of expected a brand new idea in Mania but got something of a mishmash of previous ideas instead.

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:04 am 
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*imitates Drama Alert* Hello and welcome to Drama Alert! Today we are talking about 2 users making drama about a Sonic game! Sonic Mania! And that's for all!
Be sure to leave a like, subscribe and click on the bell! Bye!


Edit: But for real, why are you guys battling about a game? Those are just some opinions.
Can't you guys stop arguing about opinions? Not everyone has the the same opinion as you guys.

Edit: Answer to Magnemania: Well, you are right. I just think we shouldn't argue about other user's opinions... I guess i overlooked that.


Last edited by Minerador Slime on Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:14 am 
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Is it wrong to discuss game design on a forum dedicated to game design?

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:24 pm 
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the difference between sonic reusing levels like this and mario reusing themes all the time is that with sonic mania, they made sure that 99% of the time the stages have a brand new twist to them that makes them feel entirely fresh. i don't mind romping through green hill zone again if it's going to be this different, and obviously i'd prefer at the very least one of the other GHZ clones that we've gotten over the years (emerald hill, palmtree panic, hell even neo green hill would be cool), but what they did with it is fine and it doesn't bother me. same for the other zones.

2D mario worlds usually have zero coherency to them beyond "this is the x themed world" which in the long run can make them very forgettable beyond just the theme itself. sonic's full of actual locales, mario's full of levels.

right now sonic reinventing the wheel is not what he needs. if future sonic games were developed like mania where it's intentionally designed to be "the next step" of the genesis games or mania or etc, then that is 100% a fine path for them to take. 2D sonic is easily the most profitable style of gameplay, and it needs to be done properly, otherwise it's just gonna fall flat like in sonic 4. mania is a perfectly fine first step, and even if the returning zones are nostalgia pandering (which they were, no doubt about it), i don't think anyone was groaning their way through each zone because "they've seen it all before".

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:23 pm 
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...All I wanted to say was... Studiopolis feels GREAT as a mix between Speed Highway and Casino Night zones. and so feels Press Garden as a mix between Marble Gardens and ...I don't remember, but part 2 reminds me of Mushroom Hill. :3 I see much of a cross between the old and the new on each area and the themes feel so welcomely familiar, yet so fresh at times! And let's not forget the minigames. The one on checkpoints was an old friend known since I was little, but wasn't expecting something like the minigame from Sonic CD to appear as the Large Rings on the stages.
And having bosses on each stage, weirdly, feels alright to me. I'm just wondering when I'll beat the cards out of these five eggbots that keep on appearing.

EDIT: Looks like I'll have to wait a lot more time to beat the king one. Not saying where each one of them do appear throughout the game, tho. I can only HINT:
On Studiopolis, you're not a guest to the broadcasts.
Someone likes to train on Press Gardens' forest.
At Mirage Saloon, you may actually witness lots of mirages.
And at the Lava Reef, there's something as hardcore and show-offish as the environment.
Looks like the one I'm after is somewhere on Titanium Monarch.


Last edited by WWpl4y3r on Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:55 pm 
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Thatgamerguy2234 wrote:
There's a minor thing I do not like in this game, and it's Sonic's sprite. They did a fantastic job at it, but I just feel like we should of gotten an entirely new sprite for sonic, instead of the s1/s2 sprite...I mean, if knuckles could, why not sonic? :confused:

A lot of classic Sonic fans hate change.

Remember when they complained about Sonic having green eyes?

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:22 pm 
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I was surprised they didn't use the sprite for Sonic 3&K and instead went back to the Sonic 1 and 2 sprite.

I still haven't finished this game yet. All I can say is that Lava Reef is terrible and Blue Sphere bonus stages are terrible.

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 Post subject: Re: SONIC MANIA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:31 pm 
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I personally liked Lava Reef and ignore the Blue Sphere bonus stages after unlocking Mean Bean Machine with the medals.

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