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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:22 am 
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Well you're right, but why leave it visible to the public? It should be settled in private. I remember when I was running SMF2F, there was a Reported Users section. It was visible only to staff because it's a private matter. Making complaints about someone in public just doesn't seem right to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:25 am 
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There is a difference in mocking someone publicly and doing a fair critique about the job! The former should not be tolerated.

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:33 am 
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I still kind of don't agree... Mentioning a person's flaws in public puts them in bad light... It's different when giving constructive criticism on things like art and music, but something personal should be private. I also don't like it much when staff scold members in public. They should simply send them a PM and problem solved. No one is put in bad light this way. Also, if it has been already done, those posts should be wiped because they don't make the forum look good.

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:46 am 
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The best way to have handled this was to go directly to the staff member. LM9 did that, but Nite Shadow didn't listen. This was understandable; as an authority figure, it's not good to bend to the will of someone you've just punished. But LM9 kinda had a point. So, it was a mess. Nobody on either side was perfect or evil; they were both just doing what they saw fit.

I hate that Nite Shadow was publicly called out; but I don't have enough confidence in my own judgement to say whether this was right or wrong. Maybe it just had to be this way, though I'd much rather believe it didn't, ideally.

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Well that makes sense but the result is: Nite feels bad and he left. I don't think this ended up the correct way.

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:05 pm 
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12 years god help me
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When you're responsible for administrating a group of individuals, you need to have thick enough skin to take criticism, and it should be public. Everything should be out in the open, because no matter how happy and content everything is made to seem, bad feelings will be left to fester if not given the opportunity to be shared.

Hypothetical scenario: What if the second Nite Shadow had done something a member disagreed with, they actually complained about it and were listened to? I don't know the guy, but I'm sure Nite would've taken the criticism and moved on. Instead, bad feelings were left to fester, and it blew up in an extraordinary display after it couldn't be contained any longer.

This happens all the time, in fact I'm sure I've personally witnessed it on MFGG at least a dozen times. An admin should be begging for criticism, because if they care about the well being of the forum (and not just their status) they'll do whatever they can to improve. I'm not saying Nite was adverse to criticism, I just think the environment here is one which discourages speaking up when something is wrong. The poor guy probably never knew anyone had a problem because questioning the status quo is such an issue.

 
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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:08 pm 
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Spritey wrote:
Instead, bad feelings were left to fester, and it blew up in an extraordinary display after it couldn't be contained any longer.

This is pretty much what happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:17 pm 
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Iroha Nekomura wrote:
Well that makes sense but the result is: Nite feels bad and he left. I don't think this ended up the correct way.
That's not entirely Kirby's Adventure's fault.

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:59 pm 
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12 years god help me
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It's not K'sA's fault at all. A normal member should always feel comfortable criticizing the administration, and they certainly shouldn't have to worry about hurting anyone's feelings in doing so.

 
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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:15 pm 
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Spritey wrote:
The poor guy probably never knew anyone had a problem because questioning the status quo is such an issue.

Now that's something I'm intimately familiar with.

But ironically, I think it's caused by exactly the opposite problem: the moderators imagining wrongly that the overall community has a problem with disagreements and other non-conforming behavior. That leads to overzealous moderation in an attempt to keep everyone happy, which leads to the perception that non-conforming behavior is not tolerated, which leads to not expressing concerns, which leads to the moderation team never finding out, and the cycle continues until someone just can't take it anymore.

This is why decisions should not be made based on complaints alone. Just because one or two people complained about something does not mean that their concerns are the concerns of the community. You have to keep in mind what the silent majority wants, too, and you also have to keep in mind the fact that if nothing is wrong, no one is going to actually tell you that. To that end, the best you can do is take a very conservative approach when it comes to moderation; only take action (other than splitting topics to better organize discussion) when a clear violation of the rules has occurred. Don't attempt to police anything else.

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:21 pm 
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I think it's worth mentioning that the idea of who would actually make the post was tossed around a bit. I thought Mit was going to do it at first, but once a day or so passed and it hadn't been made I decided to start writing one myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:40 pm 
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Iroha Nekomura wrote:
Being a good or bad staff member is subjective and open to interpretation.

Kid, you have a lot to learn. I've managed forums before; I've seen people who never should have been in power do incredibly stupid things. A mod changes some kid's name to mock and demean him. Someone with administrative access to a forum archive promotes his friends and vandalizes it, leaving some staff members (including me) lovely messages such as "you're a seriously ****** c**t" and "you're a horrible person with zero redeeming features. I hope bad things happen to you." At least one of the vandals formed grudges easily and had one against me for something I didn't even remember. I was made fun of for being autistic. True stories. Cronyism is bad, kids.

Not everything an admin does is "subjective and open to interpretation". You should know them by their fruits.

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If you think someone is being a bad staff member, just keep it to yourself.

So where does that logic end? Let's make a hypothetical scenario. One of the staff members snaps and wrecks the forum database, claiming that someone else hacked it. You're the only one who knows the truth. Are you going to keep it to yourself?

If a staff member is doing something that you believe with good reason is harmful to the community, you should not keep it to yourself. Otherwise, that thing will continue to be harmful to the community. This is common sense.

Or maybe vandalizing a forum you've been trusted to maintain is just subjective and open to interpretation?

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Well you're right, but why leave it visible to the public? It should be settled in private.

And what if settling it in private does not work, much like it has seemingly failed here? What do you do?

I'm not saying KA did the right thing, but the way you're approaching these events is pretty naive.

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Staff criticisms should definitely be public, but the loud minority shouldn't be the only ones catered to either. It's definitely tough to try to balance things out but if someone's doing a bad job as a moderator/administrator it impacts the community much more heavily than some would like to admit and can even create fear of posting.

It's not like anyone needs to immediately step down if they screw up once, they just need to know that they messed up at all. If they realize they did and take that to heart, they're not going to do the same in the future (intentionally, at least). Everyone's human and makes mistakes, especially when they're new to a position of power. I know whenever I botched up my job as staff on MW everyone let me know all about it, and it was incredibly helpful to have those past mistakes in my mind whenever I was handling things in the future.

Now, granted, there are those who don't take any criticism at all, but those are the minority and shouldn't be staff in the first place. However, you would also never learn about this unless criticisms were public. So, either way it goes, peoples' issues need to be seen. After all, if someone thinks they're doing a fine job when in reality no one at all is happy with it, whenever they DO hear about it it'll hit them especially hard and cause situations like what happened here. It's no good for anyone involved.

 
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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:44 pm 
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the issue is that too many things happened in private and (for those who didn't know) the karnov thread being closed was the straw that broke the camel's back.

it was discussed amongst those who had an issue with how he handled moderation that eventually we were gonna make a post detailing what the issue was, but the karnov thread being closed happened sooner.

i am still entirely in the mentality that the "split mindset" stemming from the creation of the IRC caused this and i will probably never be convinced otherwise. regardless of what i or my peers may have done it is absolutely undeniable that since the IRC was created a mindset where "spam needs to be eliminated at any and all costs" was formed and "only serious discussions amongst serious individuals are allowed". even then when these "serious individuals" had jokey conversations they were ready to snap back into serious mode at literally any given time once the conversation got "too spammy" (read: whenever someone made a joke about something the people in power didn't like/care about). this mindset is so toxic and i cannot believe that it took this long for things to finally happen.

as much as i did not like how he handled moderation i do think outright leaving the boards was an outcome nobody saw coming or even really wanted. personally i'd much prefer things be worked out but i can tell everyone from experience whenever someone tries to organize that it always spirals out of control for one reason or another.

i'm gonna outright say it- i do not like the mentality the IRC and eventually club saturn breeds. it is entirely anti-conversation and IRONICALLY after being made to ESCAPE a clique, it instead BECAME a clique where in order to participate or have any fun in either of these areas (ESPECIALLY club saturn, even moreso as of late) you need to already be friends with the people in power or be just as anti-conversation as they are. i was incredibly worried that this mindset would seep into administration and moderation on the boards and lo and behold that started to happen and led to people getting mad at nite shadow. am i surprised? absolutely not. is it justified? not my call. regardless of whether or not you like the skype group or jimmy t or any related MFGG chat this has gotten way out of hand.

it would be nice if the drama could end but it never will so long as things like this continue to spread and infect parts of the people in charge, whether it was a direct cause or it "unleashed" some inner desire or what. i know for a fact this kind of thing is why people avoid MFGG chatrooms because they have a history of causing drama and while i can't blame them they can't deny these issues don't exist just because they don't see them. whether you like it or not MFGG is not just the boards and the main site. even if these chatrooms are not official they have their affect on the boards and i'm tired of seeing this get way out of hand without anyone speaking up or when they DO speak up they get shut down. at least in jimmy t i let things handle themselves with looser moderation and an arguments channel.

and for the record i can back all of this up by naming names but i will not for the sake of not derailing the thread further and because i don't want this post to suddenly become a huge flame post.

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:49 pm 
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This is why I was against having an official MFGG chat.

Looks like ole Kritter was right again.


Last edited by Kritter on Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:04 pm 
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Cap'n Coconuts wrote:
Iroha Nekomura wrote:
Being a good or bad staff member is subjective and open to interpretation.

Kid, you have a lot to learn.

Is this not a bit condescending? Before you say anything, I get that I've been a dick to him in the past but I should probably knock that off.

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:17 pm 
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Yeah, I'll put everything forward as well and say that the original Club Saturn (the private one, that is) was created so myself and a few other individuals could converse without the (in our opinion) overly abrasive atmosphere that we felt plagued the MFGG chat at the time.

Club Saturn EX, however, was created when a large influx of people (Coconuts and Sevrault being the firsts, iirc) expressed a desire to join said group. I decided that, instead of opening the floodgates of our private, personal group, we'd make a public version that's open to all. EX was not intended to act as a replacement to the MFGG chat, per se. At least, that's not how we saw it. We just wanted a sort of chill atmosphere to goof around.

I will fully admit that my style of moderation has tended to be on the stricter side, but I suppose the thing with public chats is that anybody can join and do anything if you let them. My view on spam in a Discord chat is usually when messages are coming in rapidly that have clearly little or no thought to them, but I don't mind just regular old silliness. I've been trying to be a bit more lax about it, however.

Now, I'll fully admit that I can agree that a split mentality exists. And yes, it definitely has to do with the IRC being created. However, I'd argue that many members found the MFGG group just a generally unfun place to be, which is why I assume Club Saturn EX took off like it did. Like America in real life, there's a few different groups that have differing ideas of what they want MFGG to be. And to be frank, I doubt the mentality of the group had much effect on Nite Shadow as he hasn't actually been in EX for a while now.

As said before, I did not and still do not consider Club Saturn EX to be a MFGG group exclusively. I know that it's been used as one (to discuss MFGG drama and whatnot) and trust me, that displeases me as much as Mit, if not more. Mit, if you want to discuss some kind of group compromise, I am fully willing to lend an ear, albeit in private, not here.

I apologize to the staff if this counts as an outside dispute, but I felt I should attempt (emphasis on attempt, haha) to clear some things up. I will accept any warning points you feel I deserve.


On the note of the actual purpose of the topic, Nite Shadow is a good friend of mine and the first person on MFGG to really talk to me and lend me an ear. He's been kind, supportive and understanding to me and I hope he returns, if only as a member.

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:18 pm 
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I can't really say anything about it. But, it's unfortunate to see him leave.

 
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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:24 pm 
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Kritter wrote:
This is why I was against having an official MFGG chat.

Looks like ole Kritter was right again.


:thumbsup: You sure showed them!

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 Post subject: Re: Nite Shadow has resigned
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:26 pm 
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Dustinvgmaster wrote:
On the note of the actual purpose of the topic, Nite Shadow is a good friend of mine and the first person on MFGG to really talk to me and lend me an ear. He's been kind, supportive and understanding to me and I hope he returns, if only as a member.

Nite was probably the first person I actively talked to here, apart from Vinny I guess? Guess I forgot what he was like outside of his moderation eventually.

Even with that, him leaving was not an intended result of this. I think the post came too late.

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