When Squirrel turns up from his cave and questions the need to spend extra time on the wiki, the response shouldn't be "spend extra time on the wiki". I've spent lots of time on that wiki thanks, and the things I would want to do if I cared all that much (deleting user pages en masse) I can't, because I'm not a sysop anymore! (nor do I want to be). Discussion of the wiki does a great deal to help the wiki - it's silly logic to think otherwise. You should always be re-assessing the purpose of things - this pre-dates Facebook and Twitter and was geared towards an entirely different community, both lacking any sense of real focus. There's been no significant moves on the programming side of things since at least 2009/2010 so again, clearly no drive behind that, and all recent edits have been centred around user biographies - stuff that ultimately doesn't last the test of time. I just question why you desperately need more activity, since you're not really doing anything with this place and you haven't really defined any sort of goal. "Help us document ourselves (and our fangames... because the main site and forums can't do that apparently)". But whatever dude

I believe MFGG is already focused well enough on fan gaming. It may lack of activity or attention, but it do serve a well job storing archives as a history textbook. Who knows when a new wandering folk grows curiosity on our beloved community.

MFGG doesn't really need a Wiki. A lot of the pages became irrelevant when MFGG split most of its community off into Minus World. Aside from a few pages on the history of MFGG and its fangames, the MFGG Wiki is just another place to write your profile. :V (and it isn't a very journalistic, informative Wiki; most of it is biased/opinionated)

Oh, I'll help out! Although I can't really help out with the Wiki's history - I'm not sure on most things. What I can do is expanding and lots of images.

Here's just a few of the functions served by the MFGG Wiki that would be difficult to replace with another medium: [list][*]Documenting indie games and non-Mario fangames posted on MFGG, and providing relevant download links [*]Archiving competition winners, preventing data loss in case an externally-hosted image is deleted for some reason (which happens surprisingly frequently) [*]Providing member biographies, character references, and contact information [*]Assisting users by providing user-friendly tutorials geared towards small-scale game developers[/list] Some of these things could be supplanted by a large-scale mainsite expansion, but the current upgrades planned for the mainsite are evolutionary rather than revolutionary in scope. Even if it was possible to turn every mainsite development concept into a reality, we'd run into a new set of issues; for example, if we added a member bio section, most members are inactive and would never fill theirs in, and the alternative - letting any member edit anyone else's profile - has a high potential for abuse. The Wiki serves a useful purpose, which explains why we're encouraging people to make it better instead of proposing to nuke the whole thing.

[quote="VinnyVideo"]Here's just a few of the functions served by the MFGG Wiki that would be difficult to replace with another medium: [list][*]Documenting indie games and non-Mario fangames posted on MFGG, and providing relevant download links [*]Archiving competition winners, preventing data loss in case an externally-hosted image is deleted for some reason (which happens surprisingly frequently) [*]Providing member biographies, character references, and contact information [*]Assisting users by providing user-friendly tutorials geared towards small-scale game developers[/list] Some of these things could be supplanted by a large-scale mainsite expansion, but the current upgrades planned for the mainsite are evolutionary rather than revolutionary in scope. Even if it was possible to turn every mainsite development concept into a reality, we'd run into a new set of issues; for example, if we added a member bio section, most members are inactive and would never fill theirs in, and the alternative - letting any member edit anyone else's profile - has a high potential for abuse. The Wiki serves a useful purpose, which explains why we're encouraging people to make it better instead of proposing to nuke the whole thing.[/quote] You also cannot forget how the wiki also archives past and current events for future reviewing. Even just recently I've found myself scouring topics and articles on things that predate my MFGG experience from around 2007. The history of this community grabs my interest and it may even grab the interest of many newer members. I initially didn't want to participate in this "argument", "disagreement" or whatever you wanted to call it, but I want to put in my two cents. All in all, I don't see why people are saying the wiki is wasteful, pointless, etc. Who has the authority to make the decision that someone's past and current interactions on MFGG are irrelevant and shouldn't be documented? Same goes for current and past events. You could always say that they don't want their internet actions documented, but if they don't then their article can be requested for deletion or not made at all. I saw some others bring up the point that there are more articles for members than games, which is true. But is this not the point of this event? To flesh out the wiki's weak points and get rid of unneeded things, such as old member articles with minimal lines of information? Also, what makes a fangame more important to document than the community interactions themselves? Is it not the community that makes the fangames? Really all that people are bringing up against the wiki are the facts that there are not enough actual fangame articles, and or the fact that it could be done on the mainsite. I think the wiki is relevant and fine the way it is, it isn't causing any damage and the only reasons to bring it down so far have been mostly opinions, not facts.

Documenting "indie" games on the wiki is surely outside of MFGG's scope, and again, Facebook, no significant drive towards tutorials in seven years, you don't need a wiki to maintain a list of images, etc. You shouldn't be using pre-2010 stuff as a base for your ideas - it's all leftovers of a previous MFGG way of life and should have gone a long time ago [quote]But is this not the point of this event? To flesh out the wiki's weak points and get rid of unneeded things, such as old member articles with minimal lines of information? [/quote] I dunno man, there wasn't any goal defined until I brought up this idea. But if if has a purpose now, that's progress I suppose? [quote]Also, what makes a fangame more important to document than the community interactions themselves?[/quote] The F in MFGG. It's the entire purpose of this site. I mean seriously this place spent half a decade wrestling with this issue and the irony is, most people have forgotten who was fighting, because the "interactions" were redundant in the grand scheme of things (p.s. this includes me, and I was right on the front line causing the wild controversy!).

Black Squirrel, do you know who makes the fangames? The community. The members of this site. They are [i]just[/i] as important to make note of since, y'know, they are the people directly involved with all of this. The bio things? The trivia? They're just for fun! Why can't you grasp either concept? This is a site about making our own custom video games about an Italian plumber who is someone else's property. We shouldn't have to take everything so incredibly seriously, it's just bad for the community's health. Also, really, stop defending your counter points with the most literal logic ever. Mario Fan Games Galaxy is called such because it houses Mario fangames, not because that's the only thing that's vaguely important around here; you of all people should know that. This shunning of everything else is ridiculous. You're really pushing your boundaries here with all of this nonsensical arguing and whatnot, I'd suggest you cool it down significantly. On a side note, it appears Black Squirrel still has admin powers on the wiki. Could someone fix that?

I agree with vitiman. This is what makes and shaping the community. Plus, it's MFGG and Facebook is not compareable.

Gotta agree with Vitiman too. The wiki shouldn't be neglected as I always find it interesting to look up things there. Would be nice if it was cared for a little more.

Looks like VinnyVideo created a Game Maker General Guidelines in the wiki. I added some extra information for further GM improvements. I would be glad if someone write General Spriting Guidelines. Sorry and I admit, my spriting skill is not well enough yet.

[quote="Vitiman"]I'd suggest you cool it down significantly.[/quote] Raaarrrr But yes it's a wiki that should be geared up as a resource so no, you don't really sign on to the idea of it being inherently "fun", much in the same way Wikipedia isn't "fun". The wider debate about site focus has been done to death. Again, we split the place in two to reduce friction and so both sides could have their own way. If you want to bring that tension back then fine, but do apologise to your current moderation team because they'll all be jumping ship under the pressure if that happens. MFGG is much better placed when it focuses on fangames.

These are my two cents about the Wiki, and I'd like you to read and consider this: BS and Elyk are right, when they say focus needs to be put on the pages regarding fangames, tutorials, and game making. We're not an as serious Wiki as Wikipedia is, mind you, but we should still keep the focus on quality instead of quantity. Documenting "newmember1348" who just joined a month ago, is not the way to go. Example: Have a look at [url=http://wiki.mfgg.net/index.php?title=Fangame]this[/url] page. Considering it's the whole focus of our existence, it looks quite short to me, and also filled with false information: [quote]3D is too difficult, impossible, or otherwise not practical or ideal[/quote] Really? Things like this could be avoided if everything that gets put on a page requires a source, like Wikipedia. Where is useful information and links, like: How to make a fangame? History of (Mario) fangaming? Notable fangames that rose to fame beyond MFGG? How to submit a fangame to MFGG? All of this is important, and should receive some focus. My point is, if the Wiki is just a "playground" for members to boast their own ego and say "look there's a Wiki entry about me and my friends", then indeed, it's the best idea to just scrap it. The Wiki editors should take their own work seriously, question their motives when they edit/create a page, and question the correctness of every line they write, if they want the Wiki to remain, because this is another fact: [b]MFGG's webspace doesn't last forever[/b], and the Wiki does use up enough space, so that removing it would give us space for a lot of new submissions. Of the three pillars we have (mainsite, forum, Wiki), the Wiki is the first to go, if more space needs to be allocated. The lower its quality, the easier it will be to give it the axe. Give everything you write into the wiki a good thought about how many readers may get something out of it: Only you and your friends? Or everyone who wants to get more into fangaming?

That, among many problem areas, The wiki does need more useful info than it has, most definitely, I just dont think threatening to nuke it is the answer. (and seriously, this conversation has been getting really, really, depressing, and each time someone says it, it just makes me want to hang up any efforts Ive made and just leave... seriously, ive been typing up things for the wiki and saw another reply saying this, and just closed it...) perhaps a list of things that should be added, Info on the tools of the trade, tutorials, ect. what EXACTLY we should add, Things i can think of right off the top of my head: Making games in "Click" Making games in "Construct" How to rip graphics, Various artwork tutorials, (those who know how should definitely share their techniques) engine analysis from various games. the list goes on and on. And several pages that aren't listed in the "stuff that needs attention" needs to be updated as well. Important stuff should also be showcased on the wiki homepage as well, if at all possible. now, im sure i speak for several people when i say: "LETS QUIT IT WITH THIS DEPRESSING BULLCRAP AND WORK TO IMPROVE THE WIKI!"

I'm agreeing with Nite's last bit. This was not my intent when I made this thread; I wanted to get people up and help out the wiki in areas it needed help in, such as the aforementioned fangame articles that need some care (or hell, ones that need to be created in general), or the "Fangame" article itself as Guinea noted. At what point did I say "our main focus is the members" or "primarily, I think we should work on those tasty member trivia bits myself" or anything of that sort? Please, let's save the bickering about the Wiki's purpose for another day. This thread's about contributing to it. Go do that instead if you want to help out greatly :)

Guinea, if storage space becomes an issue, I believe deleted Wiki images still exist on the server, even after deletion by a Wiki Sysop. Some of those came from spambots and are fairly bulky. Text-based Wiki articles, on the other hand, consume only a tiny amount of storage space and bandwidth. Squirrel, I would encourage you to lighten up a bit. If you disagree with recent staff actions, that's fine, but please try to keep your criticism constructive in tone. I can assure you that MFGG's focus remains on fangaming, but there's no reason we can't have a [s]few beers[/s] bit of fun now and then. Also, while I've talked about doing this for years, an actual tutorial magically appeared on the Wiki last night! I highly encourage you to expand upon it and contribute similar how-tos that are reasonably well-written and user-friendly.

Does the wiki have any specific outline or template for tutorials? I might be able to type out a tutorial on sprite ripping (hopefully watering down the main site members just opening up VBA's tile viewer and submitting that) so members can learn how to rip more complex graphics. I feel like there are a lotta solid games out there that've yet to see every last sprite ripped and submitted, and I feel like I can really help with that, hopefully. Although I should probably just submit more myself.

http://wiki.mfgg.net/index.php?title=Category:Tutorials Three tutorials are now posted on the Wiki! Feel free to expand on these as you see fit. Basic spriting help or assistance for Clickteam/Construct users would be helpful additions. You're welcome to write tutorials about anything you want to as long as it's reasonably helpful for those making fangames and indie games. There's no need to adhere to any particular template, other than the basic guidelines you'd follow for any article. Also, Cam, this (outdated) article [url=http://wiki.mfgg.net/index.php?title=Mario_Ripping_Project]may be of interest to you[/url].

Another crazy night of editing and I have linked around 1/3 of orphaned topics (yes my topic adoption clinic) and found some old stuffs that really needs to be updated. Plus I added some details on game maker fundamentals.

2 things 1. The terms of service are a red link 2. I don't want to give out my real name