[quote="Mason"]We also probably don't want to be associated with lolicon. (See the Peach Hentai Fad article.)[/quote] > Peach > loli what

[quote="Mason"]We also probably don't want to be associated with lolicon. (See the Peach Hentai Fad article.)[/quote] That's because the article dealt explicitly with the forums and I'm pretty sure we don't want to be presenting anything that came from these forums in the past 6 years [quote]Also the "these things already exist" logic doesn't really work for wikis. I mean look at Wikipedia[/quote] Wikipedia doesn't cover MFGG or anything that would ever go on MFGG, nor does it contain tutorials for anything other than editing Wikipedia. It's also a fucking joke and I don't think we should ever regard Wikipedia for anything more than a presentation reference. Tutorials are however, covered in-depth in other, far more competent sources than MFGG - namely, the people who create the programs and languages that these tutorials are for in the first place. Our having these tutorials is silly and redundant, as the [i]official sites[/i] of such things as PHP and Lua contain twenty times the information we ever feasibly could and would always be current. MFGG wouldn't be helping anybody by posting what you can find better of somewhere else.

[quote="Mason"]Agreed. Isn't there a way to export all the pages or something before they get wiped?[/quote] Any remotely modern Mediawiki installation can export the entire collection of articles as an *.xml file. Any Mediawiki can then import the same.

I was hoping the MFGG Wiki tutorials were going to focus more on level/game design rather than specific languages. In addition, these would likely be more relevant to the average MFGG user than tutorials on PHP or Lua. If you wanted to learn those, you would indeed look somewhere other than the MFGG Wiki.

[quote="Fibriel"]Tutorials are however, covered in-depth in other, far more competent sources than MFGG - namely, the people who create the programs and languages that these tutorials are for in the first place. Our having these tutorials is silly and redundant, as the [i]official sites[/i] of such things as PHP and Lua contain twenty times the information we ever feasibly could and would always be current. MFGG wouldn't be helping anybody by posting what you can find better of somewhere else.[/quote] That depends entirely on what your definition of "tutorials" is - many programming languages have extensive reference manuals true, but a manual doesn't explain how a game is built. It just tells you what things are, often failing to explain if it is redundant or dangerous or even supported by various compilers/interpreters. And they're often not very user friendly. There's not much out there on the net about programming lanugages that is. They're guides written by professionals who assume everyone has, as they define, a "basic" level of understanding. Not much out there will educate someone from absoultely nothing and get them to a position where they've acquired some useful skills. And even if it ends up being a carbon copy of another site, mirrors are good and having it all in one place puts us at an advantage. Plus things can be re-worded and improved... there's no real harm in doing it if someone wants to. And again there aren't any good tutorial sites for Clickteam tools or Game Maker, which appears to be what 90% of this community uses, regardless of whether it's "good" or "bad" to do so.

[quote="Black Squirrel"]That depends entirely on what your definition of "tutorials" is - many programming languages have extensive reference manuals true, but a manual doesn't explain how a game is built. It just tells you what things are, often failing to explain if it is redundant or dangerous or even supported by various compilers/interpreters. And they're often not very user friendly. There's not much out there on the net about programming lanugages that is. They're guides written by professionals who assume everyone has, as they define, a "basic" level of understanding. Not much out there will educate someone from absoultely nothing and get them to a position where they've acquired some useful skills. And even if it ends up being a carbon copy of another site, mirrors are good and having it all in one place puts us at an advantage. Plus things can be re-worded and improved... there's no real harm in doing it if someone wants to. And again there aren't any good tutorial sites for Clickteam tools or Game Maker, which appears to be what 90% of this community uses, regardless of whether it's "good" or "bad" to do so.[/quote] Programming languages don't have extensive tutorials because you can't write a tutorial for a programming language. As for your more relevant examples: http://www.clickteam.com/website/usa/tutorials (btw, MMF1.5 came with several tutorials, even for individual extensions, right in the box) EDIT: Admittedly, Clickteam's uploaded these tutorials in fucking *.pdf and nobody will ever read them http://gmc.yoyogames.com/index.php?showforum=43 Learn GML and the rest of GameMaker you can figure out in 30 seconds, assuming you actually really do want to learn

There's still nothing wrong with having things in multiple places, reworded for better understanding with information others may have ommitted for one reason or another. Wikis are a much better tool for this sort of thing than HTML pages hosted somewhere, forums or downloadable text files. Again look at wikipedia - it collects information from all over the net and sticks it in one place. And people eventually check it and ammend things. And it gets millions of hits a day for people wanting information (also the likes of Wikivesity do tutorials). And you can write a tutorial for a programming language. You can't get it to explain how to build an entire game but you can get all sorts of important pieces of information across that a basic manual can't. Using your logic the entire howtos section of the main site should be scrapped, because you can get the information elsewhere.

[quote="Black Squirrel"]Using your logic the entire howtos section of the main site should be scrapped, because you can get the information elsewhere.[/quote] Howtos are not written text on a wiki page - hell, they aren't even tutorials; they are more like "Here is an example of what you want to do, without anything else to confuse you, now take a look and figure it out for yourself" They are also extremely specific, far moreso than a written tutorial and therefore far less likely to be available elsewhere

In my opinion, the tutorials section of the site should be restructured to include decent written examples for both Game Maker/Clickteam products and programming languages. It is, afterall, the FIRST place people would look for tutorials. If you've ever been to the Daily Click website, they have written tutorials that work pretty well, and they can always be reviewed before allowed submission if they're written badly.

[quote="Kritter"]In my opinion, the tutorials section of the site should be restructured to include decent written examples for both Game Maker/Clickteam products and programming languages. It is, afterall, the FIRST place people would look for tutorials. If you've ever been to the Daily Click website, they have written tutorials that work pretty well, and they can always be reviewed before allowed submission if they're written badly.[/quote] I agree with this idea - if tutorials should be anywhere, they should be listed on the main site where they can be controlled properly, not on the wiki where there will be edit wars and shitty writing abound

Not that many people edit the Wiki, and vandals/troublemakers/idiots go after member pages and certain controversial articles, not a page about how to make an animated background in Game Maker. Keep in mind that the Game Maker Web site relies on its Wiki as its primary source of GM help.

[quote="VinnyVideo"]Not that many people edit the Wiki[/quote] Which is one of many reasons not to use the Wiki for tutorials [quote]Keep in mind that the Game Maker Web site relies on its Wiki as its primary source of GM help.[/quote] Uh, duh? What else would you put on a GameMaker wiki?

Wiki sources are great for help, but the website should be used for specialised Mario Fangame help. In that case, i'd much rather see a decent written tutorial on "How to make Goomba Movement" on the website than in a Wiki.

ok draco i'm gonna have to ask you the next time you find a lot of articles deletion material, let both me and someone more active of a sysop like BS know about them so we can see them and do something about them quicker/easier. i got a pm on minus world from vinny about how you're editing articles with flames and questionable material which set off some alarms, and when I went to see, you didn't really do much wrong as far as I can see. a lot of these articles need deletion. i am definitely deleting articles about forum users if there is no actual information about the user. they are not your facebook profiles, people. articles should be about notable pieces of information. seeing a lot of these articles, i must say, they are garbage and i am disappointed in the lot of you for making them.

[quote="Joey"]ok draco i'm gonna have to ask you the next time you find a lot of articles deletion material, let both me and someone more active of a sysop like BS know about them so we can see them and do something about them quicker/easier. i got a pm on minus world from vinny about how you're editing articles with flames and questionable material which set off some alarms, and when I went to see, you didn't really do much wrong as far as I can see. a lot of these articles need deletion. i am definitely deleting articles about forum users if there is no actual information about the user. they are not your facebook profiles, people. articles should be about notable pieces of information. seeing a lot of these articles, i must say, they are garbage and i am disappointed in the lot of you for making them.[/quote] I think Vinny has a personal vendetta against me for some reason. He also accused me of "ruining" the Minus World article, because I removed the timeline (that contained everything that ever happened on that forum, despite this being MFGGWiki and not MWWiki) and condensed the rest of the article for more concise writing. I'd show you the diff, but Vinny's version is in "The Minus World", which I clumsily spent forever redirecting to just "Minus World"; I didn't use the Move command ("Minus World" already existed, wouldn't let me do it) so their histories are different. The "flame" he was talking about might be that my initial edit to World's Biggest Puppy or whatever it was contained a delete-me reason that said something like "Please get rid of this so we never see this bullshit again". Instead of editing out the "bullshit" part, he [i]reverted the entire edit[/i] with his reason being "Swears aren't fit for MFGGWiki" or something to that effect (despite the fact that the article was to be deleted, thus removing said swear.) I re-applied my delete-me but replaced "bullshit" with "~COW POOP~" and left a message on his talk page asking him not to behave so irrationally to minor swears on articles that are about to be deleted anyway. EDIT: [url=http://wiki.mfgg.net/wiki/index.php?title=The_Minus_World&oldid=30724]old[/url] [url=http://wiki.mfgg.net/wiki/index.php?title=Minus_World&oldid=30770]new[/url]

[quote="Kritter"]Wiki sources are great for help, but the website should be used for specialised Mario Fangame help. In that case, i'd much rather see a decent written tutorial on "How to make Goomba Movement" on the website than in a Wiki.[/quote] Written tutorials don't really work on the website though, which was my original point. You'd have to download ZIP files and that's a very strange way of handling things in this day and age. Hence why I thnk they'd be better hosted on the wiki. And then you also get the community collaborations to make sure the Goomba moves perfectly. MFGG3 probably won't show up for many many months (if at all) so that's mostly out of the question.

Draco, I don't have a "personal vendetta" against you. I just don't think you should be drastically editing major templates and creating a bunch of weird templates like "Debate-link," "Not-quite-MFGG," "Humorous but irreverent" and adding them to hundreds of pages unless you've checked with BS or someone else first. Even I admit a lot of these pages aren't very useful, but before we get too radical with the deletions, I'd like to see a real plan of what the new Wiki's structure will be. If this plan involves deleting everything except the tutorials and fangames, R II or Char should make a backup archive of the existing Wiki. And I'll say it again: This is not MW, and swearing has no place on the MFGG Wiki. EDIT: I just noticed this one. A lot of the pages he's editing are changing facts to opinions: [quote="Original Page"]ShadowMan is responsible for starting some of MFGG's more famous fads. He was the co-creator of [[Hitler on Ice]] and [[Waligie]] and created [[History Of Cans]].[/quote] [quote="New Edit"]ShadowMan is responsible for many of MFGG's ridiculous memes or fads. He was the co-creator of [[Hitler on Ice]] and [[Waligie]] and was fond of posting the History of Cans, an extremely large and boring monologue used as a sort of rickroll.[/quote]

[quote]I just don't think you should be drastically editing major templates[/quote] My "drastic edits" include such things as centering the text in table titles, condensing duplicate templates into one template, and adding aliases to tags so you can type any of fifty things and they will all work. You know what would happen if I made a change BS didn't approve of? He would revert it and ask me not to do it again. And that's what important; if the admins have a problem, they'll tell me. (Not you.) [quote]and creating a bunch of weird templates ... and adding them to hundreds of pages unless you've checked with BS or someone else first.[/quote] Hello, welcome to the concept of a wiki, if you wait for the okay of the [i]two people[/i] who sign on every month or so to check the wiki before you do anything, you destroy the entire point of the wiki. You can bitch at me when I do something BS can't stand and reverts himself. Unless that happens? You can argue against my edits on the talk pages of the wiki, explicitly designed for such arguments. [quote="VinnyVideo"]And I'll say it again: This is not MW, and swearing has no place on the MFGG Wiki.[/quote] [size=200]Then edit the swearing out.[/size] Don't just revert the [i]entire god damn edit[/i] because you can't handle one word in said edit. [i]You're en editor too; [b]so edit.[/b][/i] Oh, and this swearing was in a deleteme tag. Meaning it would have been deleted. Meaning the swearing would be gone. [quote]A lot of the pages he's editing are changing facts to opinions:[/quote] Oh? Explain to me how these [b]HORRIBLE OPINIONS...[/b] detract from the article? Do you honestly mean to tell me that you considered ShadowMan's humor perfectly logical and normal, and the History of Cans to be intriguing and gripping? I have a better idea; you could complain about changes that matter.

We did have quite the array of message boxes already http://wiki.mfgg.net/wiki/index.php/Template:Funny http://wiki.mfgg.net/wiki/index.php/Template:Terrible-old-game seem excessive also you should categorise things http://wiki.mfgg.net/wiki/index.php/Category:Messages

[quote="Black Squirrel"]We did have quite the array of message boxes already http://wiki.mfgg.net/wiki/index.php/Template:Funny http://wiki.mfgg.net/wiki/index.php/Template:Terrible-old-game seem excessive[/quote] I understand what you mean, but there was a point to having these (I did rush the making of the boxes and they don't have a professional look to them at all; I intended for somebody else to make them a bit more ... respectable) funny is there because we have articles that are simply too amazing to remove, like Delccordion, but which are irrelevant and would therefore be at risk of deletion. If you insist on removing these I really want to keep backups just so I have them terrible-old-game is there to mark retro games that we cover that are ... old, and terrible, because they were made in 2003. I just didn't want to start up the "HA LOOK HOW BAD FANGAMES ARE THEY'RE SO SHITTY THEY CAN'T CALL THEMSELVES JUST 'GAMES' AAAAHAHAHAHA" that I saw back in the day, especially if somebody just stumbles on that one game and doesn't look at any others :x [quote]also you should categorise things http://wiki.mfgg.net/wiki/index.php/Category:Messages[/quote] MFGGWIki's current categories are named pretty stupid shit and I had trouble remembering what the categories were, so a lot of the new stuff I made isn't in the proper category, or any category, simply because i had no idea where to put it I spent forever modifying stuff like "Category: Fangaming" which encompassed 50 totally different things from fangames themselves to Lua terms and didn't begin to approach indie game dev (which the MFGG forums cover and which should be covered by MFGGWiki with near equal weight to fangaming)