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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:39 pm 
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Mit wrote:
otherwise constant praise creates that stark of a contrast.

when i'm the only one doing it of course i look like the wet blanket. consistently virtually everyone else praises his work when there are a lot of fundamental flaws.

How do you think I feel when I keep seeing others mindlessly praise the work of other artists in spite of how toxic they actually are? It's why I tend to "play savior" since I was forced to keep enduring those artists treating other people they see as "inferior" in their talent/behavior like they don't exist (in a best case scenario).

Anyway, Mit, I acknowledge that you gave some positive feedback on some of Neweegee's work (even though you could have been a little more clear when stating how Mario is coming along nicely in a previous post) and I really don't need you showering anybody with one-sided praise. It just that I was a little bit irked by how you phrased one of your replies.
Mit wrote:
its easier to shade when the shaping provides clear enough forms for light to understandably reflect off of it. shading means virtually nothing when the shapes are formless.

If it was up to me, I'd write it like this:
Mit wrote:
I'll admit that Neweegee's shading is improving; however, I personally find that shading isn't actually that difficult once the shaping provides clear enough forms for light to understandably reflect off of it. Even if you're a master at shading, it won't do much good if the shapes are weak.

Now, the other thing that I see as a bit of a red flag is that you don't reply to this topic all that often. Admittedly, you could have just flat out not say anything at all and leave Neweegee with his spriters never reaching their full potential; however, I've seen users like you leaving critiques and not acknowledging whether the applied changes work or not until several days later (provided that actually happens). When I typically see that, I can't help but wonder if you guys are actually fully invested in helping other users improve through critiques. Thankfully, I have people like Hiynastrike and Captainkakarot64 providing me with an excellent critiquing setup. Even if they don't always state that they like my work, they certainly tell me as soon as possible what seems to be the problem and if I missed the mark on a previous critique.

By the way, I would also appreciate it if you don't get me started on the subject of "entirely unnecessary." Just trust me on this.

 
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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:05 pm 
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@E-Man
I think you might be reading too much into Mit's comments. He doesn't have anything out for Neweegee and he's never struck me as someone with an ego. And whether or not you think his criticism is good, it's better than nothing.

@Mit
I agree on the shaping point but I think you came off as a little rude. When it comes to constructive criticism, you need to have both praise and criticism. Start with the positive, follow with the negative. I have used this format again and again and again and again and again over the years and it's the best way to motivate improvement without sounding condescending.

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:27 pm 
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e-man, i'm not going to fully invest myself in a thread because i have my own work to do. it's not my job to do this, nor is it yours, nor anyone else's. expecting everyone to watch every thread they post in like a hawk is asinine. take it down a notch and please understand that you stalking these threads and calling people out for not being as dedicated as you is twice as obnoxious. trust me on this- you're not doing anyone any favors by constantly being on the defensive for other people. neweegee's honestly at a high enough level where this kind of moderation shouldn't even be necessary, and that's not a knock on him.

seeking constant criticism and having no confidence in your own ability is detrimental both in terms of self improvement and work ethic. i'm glad he's trying new things and now that i see him trying new things i would like to help put him in the right direction.

that being said!

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here's something i've been thinking about making for a while now. i've seen a few instances of people expressing how drawing and spriting are two separate acts, however that isn't the case. rather than repeat myself over and over, i would appreciate this being read by anyone who feels they may need it. as i said before, the only thing i feel i should say to neweegee is that i hope he looks into drawing on paper. from what i've seen of him he's got all the right pieces but isn't sure how to put them together.

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:28 am 
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DragonDePlatino wrote:
@E-Man
I think you might be reading too much into Mit's comments. He doesn't have anything out for Neweegee and he's never struck me as someone with an ego. And whether or not you think his criticism is good, it's better than nothing.

I'll admit that I was going overboard and I'm sorry about that. It's just that I had bad experiences with other talented artists online and I didn't want that to happen to anyone else ever again. You understand, right?


As for you, Mit, I agree that it's unreasonable to constantly look at threads when you have better things to sort out. With that said, however, there are some things I disagree with to an extent and I have my own thoughts I'd like to share on several points. Of course, I want to save them all for another thread since it's not a good idea to continue it here.

 
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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:03 pm 
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Very informative comic, Mit
It'd make sense that normal drawing skills would have a big impact on how you draw pixel art, especially since I see people who almost exclusively draw normal art do really well when they try making pixel art the first time.

Only problem is that I have to learn how to actually draw! But I'm definitely trying to learn and looking up things.

Also at the same time, I already want to touch up on small sprites too. I've tried redrawing Wario from the fangame for the 3rd(4th??) time with an attempt at a more detailed look in both shading and shape. I have a whole month to make new pixelart for the contest anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:34 pm 
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The nose on Wario's new sprite seems a bit out of shape. I also prefer thr shadow under Wario from the previous sprite. :thumbsup:

 
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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:02 am 
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i think that new wario is an improvement over the last, but could still use a bit of tweaking. it's way more readable and the brighter colors help make it more appealing, but there's a lot of AA where there doesn't necessarily have to be and some of the definition created from the shading is off.

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my main goals were to try to trim the color count and clean up the AA by polishing the shapes. originally i was going to make his hair black instead of brown, but realized that that went against what you had in mind, which was to have his facial structure be more or less on-model. while i personally didn't have too big of an issue with the nose, i spruced it up a bit by giving him his nostril and overall made it less spherical.

in terms of his musculature i tried to make it a bit visible in the arm, but nothing too blatant, and it's moreso there to imply the form of his arm than the detail of it. same goes for his hand, and i reshaded his stomach area to show a bit more of his body too. as for his legs i tried to make them appear more connected to his pelvis by taking away that line you had on his thigh and letting up on the shading. lastly i gave his jeans a tiny bit of detail in a pocket and some belt straps.

overall i would suggest to use AA only where it's needed- same for sel-out. it's there to imply thinner and thicker outlines (at least in the way it's used here), and it's usually better to make the difference between bright and dark outline as inconspicuous as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:36 am 
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Mit wrote:
i think that new wario is an improvement over the last, but could still use a bit of tweaking. it's way more readable and the brighter colors help make it more appealing, but there's a lot of AA where there doesn't necessarily have to be and some of the definition created from the shading is off.

Image
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my main goals were to try to trim the color count and clean up the AA by polishing the shapes. originally i was going to make his hair black instead of brown, but realized that that went against what you had in mind, which was to have his facial structure be more or less on-model. while i personally didn't have too big of an issue with the nose, i spruced it up a bit by giving him his nostril and overall made it less spherical.

in terms of his musculature i tried to make it a bit visible in the arm, but nothing too blatant, and it's moreso there to imply the form of his arm than the detail of it. same goes for his hand, and i reshaded his stomach area to show a bit more of his body too. as for his legs i tried to make them appear more connected to his pelvis by taking away that line you had on his thigh and letting up on the shading. lastly i gave his jeans a tiny bit of detail in a pocket and some belt straps.

overall i would suggest to use AA where it's needed- same for sel-out. it's there to imply thinner and thicker outlines (at least in the way it's used here), and it's usually better to make the difference between bright and dark outline as inconspicuous as possible.

Meh, Neweegee's is still better.

The only issue I have with your sprite Neweegee is that Wario isn't in his classic outfit which isn't really a bad thing but rather something that kinda bugged me.

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:46 am 
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thank you for your contribution. though unless you care to elaborate on why i can't say your claim has much weight as it being "better" was absolutely not the point of my post.

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:13 pm 
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Both of them are pretty good, but I have some issues with both. Neweegee definitely made an improvement over the original Wario, as he fixed some shading issues and made things a little more clean. However, a few shapes looked a bit off, such as the nose, and the AA was unnecessary in a few places. While Mit added some more details, fixed a few of the shapes, cleaned up the unnecessary AA and got rid of a color in the process, his version ended up looking a little flat compared to the original, both in terms of getting rid of shading and changing some of the shapes. It looks a little too angular in some places whereas Neweegee's is more round, which I prefer.

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I took what I liked best from both of them, and added some details of my own. I added his other foot since it looked a little odd to me, changed the tip of the cap, fixed the chin and jaw, and re-shaded his stomach area again to make it look less choppy. I honestly think at this point it's mostly a matter of opinion on what works and what doesn't, but overall the two previous sprites were already very good!

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:47 pm 
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i think having the crack of his chin and by extension his back leg is unnecessary, as the angle his body is at means it shouldn't be visible. that and the added shading on the top of his hat implies a bump that isn't necessarily there.

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:54 pm 
I hate yellow balls of consumption.
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Well, like I said, these are personal preferences. If Neweegee would like to use them then he is by all means free to. If he'd rather take them out that's fine as well. We already have our own ideas of what the ideal Wario looks like anyway, haha.

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:42 pm 
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Yeah, it's really hard to say at this point which version is better. Both Newee and Mit are fantastic artists so it's starting to boil down to stylistic choices. Personally, I like Mit's version with Cruise's hat and butt-chin. Mit's shading has some really strong clusters but I'd stick to Newee's shirt as I never was a fan of the Brawl moobs. DX

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:36 pm 
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At this point a lot of things do come down to stylistic choice, so it's really challenging to choose parts from your edits to go with. They both feature many changes that I like, and some that don't exactly match what I'm going for.

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I chose parts as carefully as I could to try getting it to look as good as I think it can be. Easily Mit's version's nose and the back of the head was something I'd go with, as well as Cruise's Teeth/Mouth area and arm. But the rest was something I tried to balance between both(though I couldn't do anything with the other leg and butt-chin since his direction is strictly forward here).
I also tried re-spriting the Dog to match Wario, and hopefully get a better idea of the style.

Ultimately, I want to go for a style that feels kinda "Dirty" in a way, since I feel that'd fit Wario best, but still clean enough to be able to easily identify smaller details visible on a character.

Also, the new shadow is a bit of a placeholder, since I might draw it separately in-game, but I'm not sure just yet

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:16 pm 
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I think Wario is looking pretty good right now. He certainly looks better than the previous version in my opinion. The dog also looks very nice. I like its colors and how the sprite itself seems to be showing some personality. The only negative thing I could say is that considering that the dog's angle is completely looking at the right, I don't think his left ear should be visible.

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:16 pm 
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Yeah, the left ear looks more like a tuft of hair since its on the middle of the head. Just take that out, and it should be good! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:17 pm 
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Yeah, I thought the other ear needed to be always visible, kinda like how it's done in some cartoons, but it seems like it confuses the perspective a bit and doesn't really need to be anyway.

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BTW I struggled to make this small edit because Windows 10 dun goofed with it's update and removed some necessary files needed to run Game Maker Studio, which is also what I use to make sprites. I used ASEprite to edit this, but I'm so used to GMS that it felt like playing Smash Bros. with a Wii Remote, so until I get it fixed I probably won't be making anymore graphics for now :/

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:17 pm 
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Is that a jojoke?
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Quote:
that it felt like playing Smash Bros. with a Wii Remote

Or anything that isn't a GameCube controller

Anyway, I really like how your art style looks, although Wario's jacket just looks a bit off, other than that, it's perfect :)

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:17 pm 
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Neweegee wrote:
I used ASEprite to edit this, but I'm so used to GMS that it felt like playing Smash Bros. with a Wii Remote, so until I get it fixed I probably won't be making anymore graphics for now :/

It's nice to see you're giving ASEprite a shot. Admittedly, I felt the same way transitioning from MS Paint to ASEprite. Things as basic as the pointer really threw me off. :laugh:

All I can recommend is that you slowly ease yourself into it. For now, use GMS as your primary editor and save the simple things for ASEprite. Also, I recommend going to Edit -> Preferences -> Editor and setting Right-click to "Pick foreground color". It's incredibly awkward at first but after a few days you'll see a significant increase in spriting speed. I can't live without it now!

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 Post subject: Re: Neweegee making pixels
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:29 pm 
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Finally got GMS fixed a while back, during that time, I also tried practicing lots art stuff including actually drawing, but right now I'm still focusing on the regular sprites

This time, I wanted try out a different style of animation that has a more hand-drawn feel, mainly inspired by Owl Boy.
Basically, I redraw most(if not all) of the character on each frame. Here's what I've got so far:
Image Image Image

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